please explain to me how a having a job is a "right".
please explain to me how turning a profit (even a very large one) is violating anyone's rights.
your right... it sucks that those people have to do the work of more people ...but it isnt a violation of rights. its the people becoming more efficient.
Hey kuzi, let's just bring back slavery and hey why we are at it let's just have a select few run everything say 8 people and all of us can be stripped of rights and such.
it is becoming more and more clear that you have no idea what i am talking about.
phobicsquirrel:
Brilliant. Making profit off of the suffering and loss of others isn't moral.
who is losing in the situation when i am getting paid for my services as a cook at applebees? just because my boss runs the entire company and makes more than me does not mean that he is violating my rights or that i am losing anything. I am providing them a service. they are providing me a wage that has kept me there. if i didnt like that wage i would go somewhere that offered a better wage, or i would go to school and better myself to make more money.
phobicsquirrel:
I would have hopped that man kind would have grown up. In this country we have the wealthiest people in the world. The top 1% has more wealth than the bottom 95% and that strikes you as good?
even our poor people have a better life than the poor in many other countries.
the middle 50% also have more wealth than the bottom 25%. the people at the top ALWAYS have more money than the people at the bottom... what is pointing it out do? bill gates has more money than any other american.
so?
phobicsquirrel:
Why does this country have this type of wealth?
Capitalism?
phobicsquirrel:
Well greed and the destruction of the business sector by de-regulation, and corporate welfare. I think people were doing just fine being rich in the pre 1980's and they actually contributed to society.
HERE (again) is the list of the HUNDREDS of agencies that the government uses to regulate just about everything. pleas show me how we have "Deregulated"
you have never shown one single shred of evidence to back this claim up at all. i cannot even take you seriously until you do. you have no claim. repeating it without evan a bit of evidence will not make your argument stronger. show me how we deregulated anything at all in the last 10 years.
phobicsquirrel:
Ever wondered why we no longer make anything?
no, i never wonder. I know why. because our corporate tax rate is the second highest in the world because it costs more money to do business in the US because or regulations. why the heck would anyone want to come here and set up shop if they can keep more of the money they make in another country? you never seem to answer that question either.
phobicsquirrel:
That doesn't bother you that we import more than any other country?
kinda, but if we make our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the world this problem wouldnt be as bad.
phobicsquirrel:
How is it that we use to be the largest exporter? We made *** and had a good balance of the workplace, and it's practices.
yeah... then we hiked our taxes up....
phobicsquirrel:
Once the laws had been shredded for the top our once great manufacturing was depleted.
what laws were shredded? this is a bold claim that needs a reference. this is your opportunity to show me how i am wrong. take it.
phobicsquirrel:
In many ways this country is no longer a super-power.
i agree.
phobicsquirrel:
No country is perfect but the level of poverty and wealth of this country is far behind the rest of the industrialized nations.
again, i need a reference to this bold claim.
phobicsquirrel:
Russia and Germany learned from their mistakes and grown substantially.
and the only reason why it isnt worse is because of an entitlement program that artificially keeps the auto workers "employed" at the taxpayers expense. if the global down turn doesnt end soon, germany could see unemployment reach 10% + mainly because the government wont be able to afford to keep paying them when they are not producing.
phobicsquirrel:
China, Japan and Russia have all talked about moving the dollar out of the global market standard.
...yes they are... but i would like to explore this idea more. can you give me more info? a link that will give me more information than the one line about the dollar losing its status. I guess the point got a bit muddied.
phobicsquirrel:
Your right, having a job isn't a right, neither are a lot of other things, but they are necessary in our current world. Have you no morality?
first: there are goods and services that are highly desirable, even necessary for life, but these things cannot be rights, and this is demonstrable through a simple exercise in logic:
Let us say your house is on fire, and you live in isolation, with no government around. If we posit a “right to fire service” then your rights have apparently been violated, but by who? If you have a “right” to food, water, and clothing, who has violated your rights by not providing them, in the absence of government? God? The Universe itself? It’s easy to see how this is a nonsensical formulation.
second:
i do have morality. that is why i believe that individual rights are important. I do not take from others. i need to earn my keep. i give to charity. but i also realize that it is not my place to force others to spend their money in a way i see fit. only they can choose how to spend their money. it is none of my business how they choose to live their lives. lives they own.
there will always be poor people. that sucks. but its true. no government (especially communist or socialized government) has ever solved this problem. socialized governments have had MORE poor than the capitalistic nations. when communism in Russia fell the economy improved. China is moving farther from communism and their economy is improving. Cuba is even trying "Socialism Lite"
i know you arent advocating out and out communism... but the European socialism model has produced Unemployment consistently higher than the USand our unemployment will probably recover faster than theirs
and according to newsweek,
Private-sector employment, i.e., nongovernment employment, expanded by 70 percent in the United States between 1970 and 1998. During the same 28 years in the Eurozone, private-sector employment increased by less than 5 percent.
one more thought on my morality: the true benevolence of private charity is the enemy of the forced altruism of taxation.
phobicsquirrel:
Is a large company that fires people and destroys entire cities and town worthy of staying in business?
have they violated any rights? did they do it on purpose? did they set the company up in a specific way so that many people would join then fail?
no company wants to lay off thousands. this usually means that the company is losing money. no company wants to lose money. no company is looking to fail. unfortunately mistakes are made and failures happen. that does not mean that the company or the system is evil, it just means that those people running the show are idiots. (or have their hands tied) if any rights were violated, then the workers have every right to take them to court. ..and they should if that is the case.
if the company has brought down an entire town *cough cough*DETROIT*cough cough* then maybe the company should fail. maybe my tax dollars should not go to them. god knows that i havent been buying their cars for quite some time now...
minor edits to clean it up... but im tired... im sure i missed some type-os.
moore is an idiot. he is LIVING the american dream while bashing it. moore grew up in lower middle class Michigan, the son of factory workers. he dropped out of college. he was handed nothing. he worked hard and had passion for what he did and became a successful filmmaker. then he has the ignorance to say "Capitalism never did anything for me" Mr Moore: Capitalism did EVERYTHING for you -- you Millionaire.
i was thinking about this while at work today... i think i had a slight change of heart.
when i made this statement i was looking at it from the bigger scope. as in "capitalism the system never let me work hard and get what i need though creative thinking, smart planning and wise business decisions, etc..." i see the potential error of my ways. Moore could have meant "Capitalism never did anything for me" literally. like the system owes him something because he exists. some sort of hand out the classic entitlement mentality. as in, he makes a film and he has a right force it into theaters simply because he made it.
moore is an idiot. he is LIVING the american dream while bashing it. moore grew up in lower middle class Michigan, the son of factory workers. he dropped out of college. he was handed nothing. he worked hard and had passion for what he did and became a successful filmmaker. then he has the ignorance to say "Capitalism never did anything for me" Mr Moore: Capitalism did EVERYTHING for you -- you Millionaire.
i was thinking about this while at work today... i think i had a slight change of heart.
when i made this statement i was looking at it from the bigger scope. as in "capitalism the system never let me work hard and get what i need though creative thinking, smart planning and wise business decisions, etc..." i see the potential error of my ways. Moore could have meant "Capitalism never did anything for me" literally. like the system owes him something because he exists. some sort of hand out the classic entitlement mentality. as in, he makes a film and he has a right force it into theaters simply because he made it.
i could be wrong...
Either way he is still an idiot...
Besides, didn't you see that episode of Family Guy? He is really just Rush Limbaugh in a Michael Moore suit.
please explain to me how a having a job is a "right".
please explain to me how turning a profit (even a very large one) is violating anyone's rights.
your right... it sucks that those people have to do the work of more people ...but it isnt a violation of rights. its the people becoming more efficient.
Hey kuzi, let's just bring back slavery and hey why we are at it let's just have a select few run everything say 8 people and all of us can be stripped of rights and such.
it is becoming more and more clear that you have no idea what i am talking about.
phobicsquirrel:
Brilliant. Making profit off of the suffering and loss of others isn't moral.
who is losing in the situation when i am getting paid for my services as a cook at applebees? just because my boss runs the entire company and makes more than me does not mean that he is violating my rights or that i am losing anything. I am providing them a service. they are providing me a wage that has kept me there. if i didnt like that wage i would go somewhere that offered a better wage, or i would go to school and better myself to make more money.
phobicsquirrel:
I would have hopped that man kind would have grown up. In this country we have the wealthiest people in the world. The top 1% has more wealth than the bottom 95% and that strikes you as good?
even our poor people have a better life than the poor in many other countries.
the middle 50% also have more wealth than the bottom 25%. the people at the top ALWAYS have more money than the people at the bottom... what is pointing it out do? bill gates has more money than any other american.
so?
phobicsquirrel:
Why does this country have this type of wealth?
Capitalism?
phobicsquirrel:
Well greed and the destruction of the business sector by de-regulation, and corporate welfare. I think people were doing just fine being rich in the pre 1980's and they actually contributed to society.
HERE (again) is the list of the HUNDREDS of agencies that the government uses to regulate just about everything. pleas show me how we have "Deregulated"
you have never shown one single shred of evidence to back this claim up at all. i cannot even take you seriously until you do. you have no claim. repeating it without evan a bit of evidence will not make your argument stronger. show me how we deregulated anything at all in the last 10 years.
phobicsquirrel:
Ever wondered why we no longer make anything?
no, i never wonder. I know why. because our corporate tax rate is the second highest in the world because it costs more money to do business in the US because or regulations. why the heck would anyone want to come here and set up shop if they can keep more of the money they make in another country? you never seem to answer that question either.
phobicsquirrel:
That doesn't bother you that we import more than any other country?
kinda, but if we make our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the world this problem wouldnt be as bad.
phobicsquirrel:
How is it that we use to be the largest exporter? We made *** and had a good balance of the workplace, and it's practices.
yeah... then we hiked our taxes up....
phobicsquirrel:
Once the laws had been shredded for the top our once great manufacturing was depleted.
what laws were shredded? this is a bold claim that needs a reference. this is your opportunity to show me how i am wrong. take it.
phobicsquirrel:
In many ways this country is no longer a super-power.
i agree.
phobicsquirrel:
No country is perfect but the level of poverty and wealth of this country is far behind the rest of the industrialized nations.
again, i need a reference to this bold claim.
phobicsquirrel:
Russia and Germany learned from their mistakes and grown substantially.
and the only reason why it isnt worse is because of an entitlement program that artificially keeps the auto workers "employed" at the taxpayers expense. if the global down turn doesnt end soon, germany could see unemployment reach 10% + mainly because the government wont be able to afford to keep paying them when they are not producing.
phobicsquirrel:
China, Japan and Russia have all talked about moving the dollar out of the global market standard.
...yes they are... but i would like to explore this idea more. can you give me more info? a link that will give me more information than the one line about the dollar losing its status. I guess the point got a bit muddied.
phobicsquirrel:
Your right, having a job isn't a right, neither are a lot of other things, but they are necessary in our current world. Have you no morality?
first: there are goods and services that are highly desirable, even necessary for life, but these things cannot be rights, and this is demonstrable through a simple exercise in logic:
Let us say your house is on fire, and you live in isolation, with no government around. If we posit a “right to fire service” then your rights have apparently been violated, but by who? If you have a “right” to food, water, and clothing, who has violated your rights by not providing them, in the absence of government? God? The Universe itself? It’s easy to see how this is a nonsensical formulation.
second:
i do have morality. that is why i believe that individual rights are important. I do not take from others. i need to earn my keep. i give to charity. but i also realize that it is not my place to force others to spend their money in a way i see fit. only they can choose how to spend their money. it is none of my business how they choose to live their lives. lives they own.
there will always be poor people. that sucks. but its true. no government (especially communist or socialized government) has ever solved this problem. socialized governments have had MORE poor than the capitalistic nations. when communism in Russia fell the economy improved. China is moving farther from communism and their economy is improving. Cuba is even trying "Socialism Lite"
i know you arent advocating out and out communism... but the European socialism model has produced Unemployment consistently higher than the USand our unemployment will probably recover faster than theirs
and according to newsweek,
Private-sector employment, i.e., nongovernment employment, expanded by 70 percent in the United States between 1970 and 1998. During the same 28 years in the Eurozone, private-sector employment increased by less than 5 percent.
one more thought on my morality: the true benevolence of private charity is the enemy of the forced altruism of taxation.
phobicsquirrel:
Is a large company that fires people and destroys entire cities and town worthy of staying in business?
have they violated any rights? did they do it on purpose? did they set the company up in a specific way so that many people would join then fail?
no company wants to lay off thousands. this usually means that the company is losing money. no company wants to lose money. no company is looking to fail. unfortunately mistakes are made and failures happen. that does not mean that the company or the system is evil, it just means that those people running the show are idiots. (or have their hands tied) if any rights were violated, then the workers have every right to take them to court. ..and they should if that is the case.
if the company has brought down an entire town *cough cough*DETROIT*cough cough* then maybe the company should fail. maybe my tax dollars should not go to them. god knows that i havent been buying their cars for quite some time now...
minor edits to clean it up... but im tired... im sure i missed some type-os.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the current state of the United States is proof that letting govt have less control/regulation over wall street and large corporations will not work. You can't argue that. And even after stealing bilions of dollars from the taxpayers, nothing is any better. Banks still bought up other banks, didn't open up credit markets, hoarded the case, paid bonus's, and wall street is not changing anything. The large corporations are not accountable, nor do they fail because of protection from doing so. I found some good reads, enjoy.
Im quite certain Squirrel was referring to businesses who took bailout money (which is a govt. handout that people were enraged about....but tax breaks for big business [also a govt handout] somehow fall into the idea of good Keynesian economics) and also gave such lavish packages as AIG----I dont think he meant every business, thats obvious.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the current state of the United States is proof that letting govt have less control/regulation over wall street and large corporations will not work. You can't argue that.
I can and will argue that...
BUT not right now i just wanted to pop in and say that
i have not forgot about this thread, but my time has been very limited. i have a feeling that some of the thoughts going on in my head about this thread and the links you posted may change a perspective or two. i know it did mine... ... a bit....
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the current state of the United States is proof that letting govt have less control/regulation over wall street and large corporations will not work. You can't argue that.
I can and will argue that...
BUT not right now i just wanted to pop in and say that
i have not forgot about this thread, but my time has been very limited. i have a feeling that some of the thoughts going on in my head about this thread and the links you posted may change a perspective or two. i know it did mine... ... a bit....
Comments
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=162047001512
just because my boss runs the entire company and makes more than me does not mean that he is violating my rights or that i am losing anything. I am providing them a service. they are providing me a wage that has kept me there. if i didnt like that wage i would go somewhere that offered a better wage, or i would go to school and better myself to make more money. even our poor people have a better life than the poor in many other countries. the middle 50% also have more wealth than the bottom 25%. the people at the top ALWAYS have more money than the people at the bottom... what is pointing it out do? bill gates has more money than any other american.
so? Capitalism? HERE (again) is the list of the HUNDREDS of agencies that the government uses to regulate just about everything. pleas show me how we have "Deregulated"
you have never shown one single shred of evidence to back this claim up at all. i cannot even take you seriously until you do. you have no claim. repeating it without evan a bit of evidence will not make your argument stronger. show me how we deregulated anything at all in the last 10 years. no, i never wonder. I know why. because our corporate tax rate is the second highest in the world
because it costs more money to do business in the US because or regulations.
why the heck would anyone want to come here and set up shop if they can keep more of the money they make in another country?
you never seem to answer that question either.
kinda, but if we make our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the world this problem wouldnt be as bad. yeah... then we hiked our taxes up.... what laws were shredded?
this is a bold claim that needs a reference. this is your opportunity to show me how i am wrong. take it. i agree. again, i need a reference to this bold claim. i would like to note that their mistakes were socialism.
capitalism has taken root in Russia. (and has been there since 1995)
and Germany just booted their left-wing party, the Social Democrats out of office.... actually Japan's public works programs didnt work
...and come to think of it neither did FDR's
another Reference
if you consider 8.2% unemployment "a lot better..."
and the only reason why it isnt worse is because of an entitlement program that artificially keeps the auto workers "employed" at the taxpayers expense. if the global down turn doesnt end soon, germany could see unemployment reach 10% +
mainly because the government wont be able to afford to keep paying them when they are not producing. ...yes they are... but i would like to explore this idea more. can you give me more info? a link that will give me more information than the one line about the dollar losing its status. I guess the point got a bit muddied. first:
there are goods and services that are highly desirable, even necessary for life, but these things cannot be rights, and this is demonstrable through a simple exercise in logic:
Let us say your house is on fire, and you live in isolation, with no government around. If we posit a “right to fire service” then your rights have apparently been violated, but by who? If you have a “right” to food, water, and clothing, who has violated your rights by not providing them, in the absence of government? God? The Universe itself? It’s easy to see how this is a nonsensical formulation.
second:
i do have morality. that is why i believe that individual rights are important. I do not take from others. i need to earn my keep. i give to charity. but i also realize that it is not my place to force others to spend their money in a way i see fit. only they can choose how to spend their money. it is none of my business how they choose to live their lives. lives they own.
there will always be poor people. that sucks. but its true. no government (especially communist or socialized government) has ever solved this problem. socialized governments have had MORE poor than the capitalistic nations. when communism in Russia fell the economy improved. China is moving farther from communism and their economy is improving. Cuba is even trying "Socialism Lite"
i know you arent advocating out and out communism...
but the European socialism model has produced Unemployment consistently higher than the USand our unemployment will probably recover faster than theirs and according to newsweek, Private-sector employment, i.e., nongovernment employment, expanded by 70 percent in the United States between 1970 and 1998. During the same 28 years in the Eurozone, private-sector employment increased by less than 5 percent.
one more thought on my morality:
the true benevolence of private charity is the enemy of the forced altruism of taxation.
have they violated any rights? did they do it on purpose? did they set the company up in a specific way so that many people would join then fail?
no company wants to lay off thousands. this usually means that the company is losing money. no company wants to lose money. no company is looking to fail.
unfortunately mistakes are made and failures happen. that does not mean that the company or the system is evil, it just means that those people running the show are idiots. (or have their hands tied)
if any rights were violated, then the workers have every right to take them to court. ..and they should if that is the case.
if the company has brought down an entire town *cough cough*DETROIT*cough cough* then maybe the company should fail. maybe my tax dollars should not go to them. god knows that i havent been buying their cars for quite some time now...
minor edits to clean it up... but im tired... im sure i missed some type-os.
its a tracer....
i think i had a slight change of heart.
when i made this statement i was looking at it from the bigger scope. as in "capitalism the system never let me work hard and get what i need though creative thinking, smart planning and wise business decisions, etc..."
i see the potential error of my ways.
Moore could have meant "Capitalism never did anything for me" literally. like the system owes him something because he exists.
some sort of hand out
the classic entitlement mentality. as in, he makes a film and he has a right force it into theaters simply because he made it.
i could be wrong...
Besides, didn't you see that episode of Family Guy? He is really just Rush Limbaugh in a Michael Moore suit.
http://www.tradereform.org/content/view/2081/52/ (interesting read about the dollar's value)
http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/deregulation-and-triumph-wall-street
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
ESPN is reporting that President Obama watched 2 quarters of a football game and is being nominated for a Heisman Trophy.
I heard he planted 3 Tomato plants and is being credited with curing world hunger ...
BUT
not right now
i just wanted to pop in and say that i have not forgot about this thread, but my time has been very limited.
i have a feeling that some of the thoughts going on in my head about this thread and the links you posted may change a perspective or two.
i know it did mine...
... a bit....
cliffhanger?
HA!
at least im bringing in some cash...