Kuzi.. That depends, hopefully by giving you can teach people about the caring nature of most human beings, and the reward of sharing in order to help others truely in need. Giving can also lift a persons spirit.. think about that brother..
I like that line of thought, I too feel that there is a vast difference between helping someone out who is having a hard time and giving someone a free ride. The human spirit is a strong thing, but being in a hard spot for too long is sufficient to break even the toughest man, and I think that a helping hand seldom goes unappreciated. However, a hand that is always open and ripe for the plucking so to speak often goes not only unappreciated but is taken as a given, and I can understand how a person's spirit would weaken and crumble when they no longer have a reason to do anything more than exist.
This is one of those subjects that we all won't agree on, no matter what the argument one makes. But, that's my two cents on the matter, so take it for what its worth.
not to get to political... we have three rights. life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. these rights are inalienable. they are endowed by our creator (as in they are human nature). nobody can give you these rights. they exist BECAUSE you exist. I should never have to pay for someone elses rights with mine or with my money. charity is one thing. redistribution of wealth is another. Charity is voluentary. Redistribution of wealth is communist and government mandated. I dont work hard in my life so the government can steal my money and give it to someone else who dosent work. If i want to help the poor i will, but it isnt the goverments job to force me to help the poor. this isnt an argument over charity. this is an argument over socialism. charity = good. socialism = failing society.
a communist/socialist/marxist system will fail every time. It has nothing to do with compasion or feelings, it has everything to do with the well being of the nation.
no matter what the government does there will always be poor people. why drag the rich down with them? the only solution to poverty is wealth. Dont take mine. I am personally winning the war on poverty. dont steal MY MONEY
... im not sure but i think this may have strayed a bit from the toipic. Maybe we should continue the discussion in another thread on the non-cigar related side of the board...
To clarify my stance a bit kuzi, I am against the government, ours or anyone else's, taking what I work for and giving it to someone who won't work. You are spot on with that point. I was making an argument for voluntary action for the good of us all as a people, not mandatory action for the good of the lazy and unwilling.
Off topic? What was the original topic again? Ahh, yes Sam Leccia and his NUB. How bout them nubs? Have yet to try one, and I'm itching to buy some.
Kuzi.. Hopefully by giving you can TEACH people.. not make them dependent on others.. help People TRUELY in need, not the LAZY. Giving can lift a spirit but not always lift people off there ass. Taking from me or anyone and giving
to others was not what I was refering to, if you choose to give then that is where you can teach. when you are forced to give there is no lesson to be learned... oh yeah, how about those great Nubs.....That sam ,, what a guy !
not to get to political... we have three rights. life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. these rights are inalienable. they are endowed by our creator (as in they are human nature). nobody can give you these rights. they exist BECAUSE you exist. I should never have to pay for someone elses rights with mine or with my money. charity is one thing. redistribution of wealth is another. Charity is voluentary. Redistribution of wealth is communist and government mandated. I dont work hard in my life so the government can steal my money and give it to someone else who dosent work. If i want to help the poor i will, but it isnt the goverments job to force me to help the poor. this isnt an argument over charity. this is an argument over socialism. charity = good. socialism = failing society.
a communist/socialist/marxist system will fail every time. It has nothing to do with compasion or feelings, it has everything to do with the well being of the nation.
no matter what the government does there will always be poor people. why drag the rich down with them? the only solution to poverty is wealth. Dont take mine. I am personally winning the war on poverty. dont steal MY MONEY
... i wanna buy more cigars with it.
Wow!! I could not have said that any better if I tried real hard! You should run for public office. You got my vote.
not all but most. Its because libs have it out for "big tobacco" and "tobacco is evil." Libs also tend to hate things like gigantic successful industry and CEO's that "make too much money" ... and those guys smoke cigars.
Idunno... I kind of sit on the fence, except without being a flip-flopper like the Dem's man of 2004. I believe that every issue should be treated with fairness, a belief that demands that you give it careful consideration and choose whats the best course of action is for that circumstance.
In the case of tobacco, pipe tobacco and cigars are NOT "big tobacco" in any sense of the word, at least based off of any of the numbers I've seen regarding the industry. Have there been successful companies in the industry? Yes. Do you find Gurkhas on sale 25% off at Wal-mart? Oh hell no. Cigarettes, on the other hand, most definitely ARE big tobacco. They also lack any of the qualities that make cigars and pipes a refined past-time... they're completely disposable, there's no tradition, no history, no real quality tobacco, no skilled labor involved (I doubt even the growing and picking of the tobacco used in cigarettes is even 1/20th as demanding, skill wise, as that of cigar/pipe tobacco), no nothing. As such, it is natural for cigars/pipes to be a pricier thing to partake of, and things that are expensive tend to get lumped into the "snooty" category and associated with the rich, powerful and otherwise influential social elite. Which tends to have the effect of encouraging said people to partake while creating (at least a mental) roadblock for other people to overcome in order to partake.
In the case of general personal responsibility, I agree with Kuzi's statement about our rights entirely. BUT, we used those rights to decide that we want to set up governments and countries to help us achieve what we could not on our own. Part of that is that if we expect to partake of something like social security, medical programs, etc... or want to have something to fall back on in hard times, like unemployment benefits... that we will be, in whole or in part, relying on our goverment (as a representative body for our people as a whole) to provide us with, we had better be damn well ready to help others partake as well, as long as they are willing to do their part to do the same for others as well. If someone lives in a country and is not willing to do this, then they honestly have no business living there and should GTFO, because they're taking the role of a certain darkly-hued pot. Which is not to say that becuase that is the purpose of government that the government in question will always get the execution of the idea right.
All of which goes back to really needing to carefully consider each case in its own context and use critical and objective thinking to determine the best course of action regarding said case.
I think you particularly hit the nail on the head in what you said about cigars/pipes as opposed to cigarettes. There's no craft to producing a cigarette, and no value to the product. People who smoke them are responsible for that decision, but companies who produce and market them are likewise responsible for their decisions.
P.S. I apologize for the rant, insofar as this isn't really the place for it, like maduro said. Politics as they are just have a tendency to trigger mind-dump mode for me.
In the case of tobacco, pipe tobacco and cigars are NOT "big tobacco" in any sense of the word.
this does not matter to the left. not one bit. if cigars are not "big tobacco " to them then why was it they were atempting to put a ten dollar tax on cigars (PER CIGAR) last yer? they still look at it as a vice. what it is and what it is not does not matter. your points were right, cigars are a craft, an artwork even, Cigarettes have no tradition or love behind the, but that doesnt matter.
gott.des.feuer:
In the case of general personal responsibility, I agree with Kuzi's statement about our rights entirely. BUT, we used those rights to decide that we want to set up governments and countries to help us achieve what we could not on our own.
I disagree. the government cannot help me succed. they can stay out of my way while i go out and get what i want. every thime the govenment creates a system to help people it fails. it has every time.
gott.des.feuer:
social security, medical programs, etc...
case in point social security is hemmoraging money. medicare is losing money also. 2007 is the first year that medicade is taking more money out than we are putting in. how is the government going to try and fix this? taxes. but that too will fail. these programs will be bankrupt by the time i get old enough to see them. right now i am working hard to support people i dont know in a program that will never benafit me. how is that fair? how is that compasionate? thats theft... even if it is for a "good cause" I am the only one i will fall back on in bad times. Ive been unemployed and homeless (never been on wellfair or unemployment). I got off my butt and made something of myself. I have no degree. I am no different than anyone else. I just choose to work.
gott.des.feuer:
All of which goes back to really needing to carefully consider each case in its own context and use critical and objective thinking to determine the best course of action regarding said case.
when was the last time the government got ANYTHING right? ....oh wait, the postoffice is kinda sweet.( BTW ...why it the USPS good? its an independently run CAPITOLIST program. )
it is not the governments job to provide for me. thats MY job. all the government has to do is make laws that allow people to do well.
disclaimer: this rant assumes that we are talking about able bodied americans in thier 20's - 50's. people in their 20's should know that they will never see social security and they should plan for it. same with people in their 30s and early 40's. people in their 50's may well see it. this rant is also not talking about people who are truely unable to work. the sevearly mentally ill, the crippled, etc... there should be ways to get those people help. but people that are of working age and are able to work should not be given government mandated handouts. that comes out of taxes and that is theft from me.
60% plus of every tax dollar goes to a socialized program in the US. doesnt that seem a bit much being that we arent a socialist system?
PS this is a big one. I enjoy talking about political issues. (as if you cant tell) i do get animated about it. however, this is a discussion between friends. i am in no way insinuating that anyone on the forum is stupid or has bad ideas. In fact, if you post your thoughts i automaticly assume that you have put some thought into the topic and thats more than many in the world have. i respect that and i respect your opinions. I may disagree, but that is what makes this nation so great. We can disagree and still respect. After all, we all want the same thing: the US to remain a great country to live in.
Boys, we are living in a socialist country and its advancing daily. Redistribution of wealth is not something that will happen, it is happening! When 3% of the population pays 90% of the countries taxes, when people who have not paid income tax get an income tax REFUND!, when someone who can hardly afford their own mortgage is FORCED to help pay someone else's, when a higher percentage of people receive money from the government than pay money TO the government sorry to say but we live in a socialist country. Let me also explain a little something else for anyone out there who may not understand taxation. It seems a lot of people are always crying to raise taxes on "big business". Hmmm is it not clear that BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAXES? Let me repeat that BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAXES. They pass 100% of that tax down to the consumer. If McDonalds has to pay more in taxes the cost of a Big Mac goes up accordingly. If you eliminate the consumer tax on gasoline and tax the oil company instead(as has been proposed) YOU ARE STILL GOING TO PAY the tax. AND to top it off, if you as a consumer were to pay 5 cents more per gallon, the government will raise that to 6-7 cents for businesses and then the business will go ahead and round that up to 10 cents. Thus, what was originally a 5 cent tax that the consumer didn't want to pay has now become 10 cents. Moral: Everyone must pay taxes no matter how rich or poor. If we eliminate the financial drains of programs like welfare EVERYONE, rich or poor will be better off. Taxation of compaines will be less meaning they have more money to spend, meaning an increase in jobs, meaning a dcrease in the number of people in need of welfare. I know this is a little over simplified but its the truth,
PS this is a big one. I enjoy talking about political issues. (as if you cant tell) i do get animated about it. however, this is a discussion between friends. i am in no way insinuating that anyone on the forum is stupid or has bad ideas. In fact, if you post your thoughts i automaticly assume that you have put some thought into the topic and thats more than many in the world have. i respect that and i respect your opinions. I may disagree, but that is what makes this nation so great. We can disagree and still respect. After all, we all want the same thing: the US to remain a great country to live in.
is it not clear that BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAXES? Let me repeat that BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAXES. They pass 100% of that tax down to the consumer. If McDonalds has to pay more in taxes the cost of a Big Mac goes up accordingly. If you eliminate the consumer tax on gasoline and tax the oil company instead(as has been proposed) YOU ARE STILL GOING TO PAY the tax. AND to top it off, if you as a consumer were to pay 5 cents more per gallon, the government will raise that to 6-7 cents for businesses and then the business will go ahead and round that up to 10 cents. Thus, what was originally a 5 cent tax that the consumer didn't want to pay has now become 10 cents. Moral: Everyone must pay taxes no matter how rich or poor. If we eliminate the financial drains of programs like welfare EVERYONE, rich or poor will be better off.
amen. you may like rocky patel and i may like gurkha but THIS we can agree on!!
I'm not a big fan of the Olde World reminded me too much of a Gurkha ... you should love it! I need to go back and revisit it. Actually Kuz do me a favor shoot me a message the night you're going to smoke it, I have a nicely aged one sitting in the humi right now. We'll do a notes comparison in a review thread, could be interesting.
I'm not a big fan of the Olde World reminded me too much of a Gurkha ... you should love it! I need to go back and revisit it. Actually Kuz do me a favor shoot me a message the night you're going to smoke it, I have a nicely aged one sitting in the humi right now. We'll do a notes comparison in a review thread, could be interesting.
im sure ill put it in my catalog. mine has been my humidor for almost a year ( i think). I love to compare notes with others.
Yeah, I enjoy debating politics too. Not only does it help me learn more about things (if I end up conceding a point it's almost always because of something I didn't previously know), but I actually enjoy having my beliefs challenged by people with different experiences and backgrounds than me.
kuzi16:
this does not matter to the left. not one bit. if cigars are not "big tobacco " to them then why was it they were atempting to put a ten dollar tax on cigars (PER CIGAR) last yer? they still look at it as a vice. what it is and what it is not does not matter.
My point noting the (obvious to us) difference between the different parts of the tobacco industry was to illustrate exactly that... that the government fails to acknowledge that every case needs to be taken into consideration individually using critical and objective thinking into order to make the most solid and wide-reachingly beneficial decisions possible.
gott.des.feuer:
In the case of general personal responsibility, I agree with Kuzi's statement about our rights entirely. BUT, we used those rights to decide that we want to set up governments and countries to help us achieve what we could not on our own.
I think you misunderstood what I meant when I made that statement. I did not mean that the government should have a million programs to pick people up and put them back together after they've blindly thrown themselves off a cliff, metaphorically speaking, either due to ignorance or stupidity. The main functions I was referring to in that statement were public education, the legal system and law enforcement/the military. Despite the fact that all three of those are suffering from glaring flaws, they do most definitely help every good person living in this country to some degree achieve a lifestyle not otherwise possible.
Other than that I pretty much agree with what you said.
If we eliminate the financial drains of programs like welfare EVERYONE, rich or poor will be better off. Taxation of compaines will be less meaning they have more money to spend, meaning an increase in jobs, meaning a dcrease in the number of people in need of welfare. I know this is a little over simplified but its the truth,
Methinks you severely underestimate the extent of corporate greed, my friend.
Comments
This is one of those subjects that we all won't agree on, no matter what the argument one makes. But, that's my two cents on the matter, so take it for what its worth.
Joe
we have three rights. life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
these rights are inalienable.
they are endowed by our creator (as in they are human nature). nobody can give you these rights. they exist BECAUSE you exist. I should never have to pay for someone elses rights with mine or with my money. charity is one thing. redistribution of wealth is another. Charity is voluentary. Redistribution of wealth is communist and government mandated. I dont work hard in my life so the government can steal my money and give it to someone else who dosent work. If i want to help the poor i will, but it isnt the goverments job to force me to help the poor. this isnt an argument over charity. this is an argument over socialism. charity = good. socialism = failing society.
a communist/socialist/marxist system will fail every time. It has nothing to do with compasion or feelings, it has everything to do with the well being of the nation.
no matter what the government does there will always be poor people. why drag the rich down with them? the only solution to poverty is wealth. Dont take mine. I am personally winning the war on poverty. dont steal MY MONEY
... i wanna buy more cigars with it.
Off topic? What was the original topic again? Ahh, yes Sam Leccia and his NUB. How bout them nubs? Have yet to try one, and I'm itching to buy some.
i probably offended someone there.
good.
ill shut up now.
In the case of tobacco, pipe tobacco and cigars are NOT "big tobacco" in any sense of the word, at least based off of any of the numbers I've seen regarding the industry. Have there been successful companies in the industry? Yes. Do you find Gurkhas on sale 25% off at Wal-mart? Oh hell no. Cigarettes, on the other hand, most definitely ARE big tobacco. They also lack any of the qualities that make cigars and pipes a refined past-time... they're completely disposable, there's no tradition, no history, no real quality tobacco, no skilled labor involved (I doubt even the growing and picking of the tobacco used in cigarettes is even 1/20th as demanding, skill wise, as that of cigar/pipe tobacco), no nothing. As such, it is natural for cigars/pipes to be a pricier thing to partake of, and things that are expensive tend to get lumped into the "snooty" category and associated with the rich, powerful and otherwise influential social elite. Which tends to have the effect of encouraging said people to partake while creating (at least a mental) roadblock for other people to overcome in order to partake.
In the case of general personal responsibility, I agree with Kuzi's statement about our rights entirely. BUT, we used those rights to decide that we want to set up governments and countries to help us achieve what we could not on our own. Part of that is that if we expect to partake of something like social security, medical programs, etc... or want to have something to fall back on in hard times, like unemployment benefits... that we will be, in whole or in part, relying on our goverment (as a representative body for our people as a whole) to provide us with, we had better be damn well ready to help others partake as well, as long as they are willing to do their part to do the same for others as well. If someone lives in a country and is not willing to do this, then they honestly have no business living there and should GTFO, because they're taking the role of a certain darkly-hued pot. Which is not to say that becuase that is the purpose of government that the government in question will always get the execution of the idea right.
All of which goes back to really needing to carefully consider each case in its own context and use critical and objective thinking to determine the best course of action regarding said case.
I think you particularly hit the nail on the head in what you said about cigars/pipes as opposed to cigarettes. There's no craft to producing a cigarette, and no value to the product. People who smoke them are responsible for that decision, but companies who produce and market them are likewise responsible for their decisions.
I disagree. the government cannot help me succed. they can stay out of my way while i go out and get what i want. every thime the govenment creates a system to help people it fails. it has every time.
case in point social security is hemmoraging money. medicare is losing money also. 2007 is the first year that medicade is taking more money out than we are putting in. how is the government going to try and fix this? taxes. but that too will fail. these programs will be bankrupt by the time i get old enough to see them. right now i am working hard to support people i dont know in a program that will never benafit me. how is that fair? how is that compasionate? thats theft... even if it is for a "good cause" I am the only one i will fall back on in bad times. Ive been unemployed and homeless (never been on wellfair or unemployment). I got off my butt and made something of myself. I have no degree. I am no different than anyone else. I just choose to work. when was the last time the government got ANYTHING right? ....oh wait, the postoffice is kinda sweet.( BTW ...why it the USPS good? its an independently run CAPITOLIST program. )
it is not the governments job to provide for me. thats MY job. all the government has to do is make laws that allow people to do well.
disclaimer: this rant assumes that we are talking about able bodied americans in thier 20's - 50's. people in their 20's should know that they will never see social security and they should plan for it. same with people in their 30s and early 40's. people in their 50's may well see it. this rant is also not talking about people who are truely unable to work. the sevearly mentally ill, the crippled, etc... there should be ways to get those people help. but people that are of working age and are able to work should not be given government mandated handouts. that comes out of taxes and that is theft from me.
60% plus of every tax dollar goes to a socialized program in the US. doesnt that seem a bit much being that we arent a socialist system?
PS this is a big one. I enjoy talking about political issues. (as if you cant tell) i do get animated about it. however, this is a discussion between friends. i am in no way insinuating that anyone on the forum is stupid or has bad ideas. In fact, if you post your thoughts i automaticly assume that you have put some thought into the topic and thats more than many in the world have. i respect that and i respect your opinions. I may disagree, but that is what makes this nation so great. We can disagree and still respect. After all, we all want the same thing:
the US to remain a great country to live in.
Let me also explain a little something else for anyone out there who may not understand taxation. It seems a lot of people are always crying to raise taxes on "big business". Hmmm is it not clear that BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAXES? Let me repeat that BUSINESSES DO NOT PAY TAXES. They pass 100% of that tax down to the consumer. If McDonalds has to pay more in taxes the cost of a Big Mac goes up accordingly. If you eliminate the consumer tax on gasoline and tax the oil company instead(as has been proposed) YOU ARE STILL GOING TO PAY the tax. AND to top it off, if you as a consumer were to pay 5 cents more per gallon, the government will raise that to 6-7 cents for businesses and then the business will go ahead and round that up to 10 cents. Thus, what was originally a 5 cent tax that the consumer didn't want to pay has now become 10 cents. Moral: Everyone must pay taxes no matter how rich or poor. If we eliminate the financial drains of programs like welfare EVERYONE, rich or poor will be better off. Taxation of compaines will be less meaning they have more money to spend, meaning an increase in jobs, meaning a dcrease in the number of people in need of welfare. I know this is a little over simplified but its the truth,
DITTO!
Speaking of Rocky have you tried the Nicarao or Nording yet?
Other than that I pretty much agree with what you said. LOL...