Are my cigars dyed?

5 Vegas Maduro. Partagas Black. Rocky Patel The Edge: These are smokes I have enjoyed in the past, but I have some questions....

I smoke cigars because they are delicious. But, part of the joy of lighting up a big glorious stogie and herfin' to the nub is knowing that my smoke comes from pure tobacco and water. I don't want any added oils or dye with my cigar experience. I want to taste the soil where the cigar came from, the spice the fermentation process has amplified or sweetened, the special balance of various tobaccos in the blend, and the wrapper that was selected based on its ability to grow thick and beautiful.

If ANYONE has any info about dyed wrappers or cigar makers that dye their product, please share it with your brothers.

If you watch the video of the Rocky Patel factory tour on Youtube, theres a two or three second clip when the torcidores are making the Decade and The Edge wrappers where it appears that the leaf is being coated with some kind of oil. Is this "dye"? If not, it was a very viscous looking substance, and it was not gum of acacia or the sugar-based paste used for the bands.

I love Rocky Patel, Partagas and 5 Vegas and I really hope that the reason Rocky was trying to keep the FDA away was because he was trying to protect our freedoms. But it makes a lot of sense that he wouldn't want consumers to know his company was adding secret cosmetic ingredients to his product.

Now, this is just something I have been thinking about recently, and is in no way an indictment of any one cigar maker. However, I think that consumers have the right to know exactly what they are spending their hard earned money on.

Let's talk.

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Comments

jd50ae

I'm surprised no one has answered your post. Don't fret it ain't dye. I think what you are talking about is the "glue" they use to hold the wrapper in place. usually it is some kind of vegetable based product like pectin. You can buy some yourself for making repairs on your own cigars. Completely harmless.

Bob Luken

What a coincidence. I just smoked an Indian Tabac Super Fuerte Maduro. (Rocky Patel Budget Brand) While I was enjoying my smoke I looked to see what others had to say about it so I searched posts containing the words Indian Tabac Super Fuerte Maduro. Many seemed to enjoy the this cigar but The subject of dyes came up. I don't like the idea of any extra dyes used for cosmetic purposes either. I wonder if the dyes are natural. What would they use to dye the wrappers? Perhaps it's a natural substance that is not anything to be concerned about. I hope that is the case. I will look into this a little bit more.

Bob Luken

Just found this old thread. Lots of discussion on this subject.

http://www.cigar.com/cs/forums/1/319340/ShowThread.aspx

I'll bump it too.

youngryan216

I have read Alex Svenson's post as well as watched Brian Glynn's "dye test video" and also read Steve Saka of Drew Estate's letter to consumers about their natural fermentation. However, most of this information is from 2009 / 2010 and I was hoping more companies had come out and said they don't use dyes since then.

I was very sad to learn that the maker of some of my favorite cigars has been nicknamed "El Pintor" a.k.a "The Painter" as in, he paints his "maduros".

I think we can fix this.

I think that we as consumers, should return to referencing maduro as a flavor and type of fermentation done on specific leaves i.e. PA Broadleaf, San Andres etc.
However, over time people have come to see maduro as a color and that is completely backwards.

I also think that we should start some sort of campaign that cigar manufacturers can be a part of to inform smokers on exactly what is being used on their cigars.

Maybe a small, universal label on cigar boxes that says "only water" or "all natural", maybe the campaign could be called "Naked Cigars" and every company that participates gets listed on a website to prove their products are unaltered by foreign substances. I dont' know for sure, but something needs to be done, and we are the ones who have to do it. The cigar companies are obviously not coming forward. I'll draft a petition. I'll do whatever needs to be done to keep this evil away from this beautiful tradition we all enjoy.

Would anyone here or by extension, anyone you know, be interested in signing a petition to get cigar makers to reveal if they dye their products or not?

Maybe the FDA regulation is a good thing . . . I just don't want to see small companies wiped out by their own cooperation costs, or my $4 sticks to suddenly be $10.

Fight with me.

youngryan216

jd50ae:
I'm surprised no one has answered your post. Don't fret it ain't dye. I think what you are talking about is the "glue" they use to hold the wrapper in place. usually it is some kind of vegetable based product like pectin. You can buy some yourself for making repairs on your own cigars. Completely harmless.

If you watch the video, there's clearly a bowl of some type of oil during the factory tour that a roller is spreading over the entire leaf. Watch this video. Start at the 21 minute mark. Rocky Patel Factory Footage

Just 5 or 6 seconds before the 22 minute mark look at the thickness of the substance applied to the leaf. It is thick and sticky like oil.

The only possible explanation is that the water had become oily from the mixing of tobacco oils with the water over time.

I have read an account of someone who took a RP factory tour and witnessed a "washing station" where cigars were being touched up before boxing.

F.y.i. jd50ae I know the difference between cap gum and oil. I smoke Hemmingway's and Fuente rollers are very liberal with the gum. Also, I do not buy cigars that need to be "repaired" nor would I put a foreign substance on them. That's exactly why I started this thread -- to NOT have extra stuff on my 'gars.

Again, not an indictment of Rocky. Trust me, I want to keep smoking RP's and I want to keep believing he is the coolest guy on the planet. I just want the truth.

Ken Light

Rocky definitely dyes. Lots of guys do is what Alex said. Of course he's not going to name names. A couple 'good' reasons for dying is to produce a more consistent looking product (both for appearances and because look affects taste) and to smooth out otherwise splotchy looking fermented wrapper. If it matters to you, go for it. Problem for you is going to be that if they use any sort of 'natural' dye they can still say 'all natural.' Natural's a pretty darn wide scope. They could slap mud on there and it'd be natural as all hell.

WaltBasil

My personal opinion is if I like it I smoke it. I don't care if it's the natural color or not. Knowing it was turned a darker shade of of black or brown doesn't taint my taste buds. Heck, maybe that's what gives it the taste I like, who knows. But that's just me. I'm also that way with my bourbons. Folks will love a bourbon for the taste (which is why I drink it) but the minute they find out it wasn't really distilled where they thought, or the origin is in question, all of a sudden the flavor they enjoyed a minute ago no longer tastes the same to them. But as with everything else, everyone will have their own and different opinion. That's what makes the world turn.

jd50ae

I gotta say that dyeing cigars is a new one on me. I never knew because I never heard of it and I agree with Walt. I mean who gives a rats patooty. There are far too many things going on in this country and the world to worry about with out adding something so freakin minor.

Martel

I've heard of the dye thing before. The first time I heard about it was a suggestion that MOW PA's were dyed. There was a video review of one "leaking" colored juice on a guy smoking it on a really hot and humid day. Oddly enough, I don't think it was dyed, but I'm not sure what the end result of that investigation was for sure.

The only cigar I like from "El Pintor" is the Champagne Anny, so I don't think I have to worry about the dyes from him.

I am probably less likely to purchase a cigar I know or suspect is dyed. I would absolutely want to know with what it was dyed. I'm already taking on a certain amount of risk by smoking. I suspect there's a lot more "color adjusting" done than I'd like to think, but in the end, I'm not really all that worried about it.

Gray4lines

youngryan216:

Maybe a small, universal label on cigar boxes that says "only water" or "all natural", maybe the campaign could be called "Naked Cigars" and every company that participates gets listed on a website to prove their products are unaltered by foreign substances. I dont' know for sure, but something needs to be done, and we are the ones who have to do it. The cigar companies are obviously not coming forward. I'll draft a petition. I'll do whatever needs to be done to keep this evil away from this beautiful tradition we all enjoy.

Would anyone here or by extension, anyone you know, be interested in signing a petition to get cigar makers to reveal if they dye their products or not?

Maybe the FDA regulation is a good thing . . . I just don't want to see small companies wiped out by their own cooperation costs, or my $4 sticks to suddenly be $10.

Fight with me.

Even though the idea of "dye" isnt appealing to me... id be willing to bet it is still "all natural." Tobacco juices or veggie dyes. Stuff like this is common in bourbon, whiskey, and other spirits too. Doesnt make it right or wrong, but it happens.

No petition or FDA needed... vote with your dollars. You hear of a company doing something you don't like, the spread the word and stop buying it. If enough people care and join you in finding other products, you better believe companies will change. Even if they don't, I guarantee you can find a great maduro that isn't dyed.

There is also a debate on the actual maduro process. Is steaming or speedig up the process cheating? Many believe the quicker process produces an inferior maduro wrapper. You also get a darker, more even leaf with the speedy process (I think).

Bob Luken

youngryan216:
jd50ae:
I'm surprised no one has answered your post. Don't fret it ain't dye. I think what you are talking about is the "glue" they use to hold the wrapper in place. usually it is some kind of vegetable based product like pectin. You can buy some yourself for making repairs on your own cigars. Completely harmless.

F.y.i. jd50ae I know the difference between cap gum and oil. I smoke Hemmingway's and Fuente rollers are very liberal with the gum. Also, I do not buy cigars that need to be "repaired" nor would I put a foreign substance on them. That's exactly why I started this thread -- to NOT have extra stuff on my 'gars.

OMG! Did somebody accuse you of buying cigars that were already in need of repair?
No, seriously. "I've already seen that video." "I've already read that." "I know the difference between cap gum and oil." You could actually be more knowledgeable than any of us replying to your post, but how about showing a slight bit of appreciation for those who show an interest in your thread and are trying to be helpful? Hmm? Instead of your apparent cigar snob attitude?

Oh, by the way, no one accused you of buying beat up cigars in need of wrapper repairs. Sometimes cigars need repair. Surely you know this. Don't you? And no "foreign substances" are commonly used to repair them. Unless you assume we are using elmer's or gorilla glue.

kuzi16

a couple of things...

i see you are from cleveland. im in akron. we should get our herf on some time.

youngryan216:
If you watch the video, there's clearly a bowl of some type of oil during the factory tour that a roller is spreading over the entire leaf. Watch this video. Start at the 21 minute mark. Rocky Patel Factory Footage

Just 5 or 6 seconds before the 22 minute mark look at the thickness of the substance applied to the leaf. It is thick and sticky like oil.

The only possible explanation is that the water had become oily from the mixing of tobacco oils with the water over time.

it is probably water that has been steeped with tobacco remnants. this does a few things, only one of them is adding color to the leaf. the biggest reason for this water is to make the wrapper leaf more pliable so it can be added to the cigar without breaking. this is actually a fairly common practice. the liquid is dark because maduro wrappers have a tendency to bleed their color quite a bit and this color gets on the hands of the people rolling the cigars. they then dip their hands in the water to get the leaf wet and the water turns color. this isnt really a dye in the way many assume it to be. it can add color but the color isnt the issue.

the real issue is if the leaf has been fermented correctly. if it has not then then that water is a dye for color. but if the leaf is fermented it is a dye in an accidental sort of way. its about flavor. if the leaf is not fermented correctly it will not taste like a maduro. if it is fermented correctly then the color being added will just even out the hue. I dont really have a problem with that extra color if the leaf is fermented correctly unless it is staining my fingers and lips.

there are not any reputable cigar companies that dye cigars to pull a fast one. those guys get outed fast and you can taste a difference. there are reputable cigar companies that will even out the color of a wrapper for aesthetic reasons, and frankly i have zero issue with that.

youngryan216:
I have read an account of someone who took a RP factory tour and witnessed a "washing station" where cigars were being touched up before boxing.

F.y.i. jd50ae I know the difference between cap gum and oil. I smoke Hemmingway's and Fuente rollers are very liberal with the gum. Also, I do not buy cigars that need to be "repaired" nor would I put a foreign substance on them. That's exactly why I started this thread -- to NOT have extra stuff on my 'gars.

Again, not an indictment of Rocky. Trust me, I want to keep smoking RP's and I want to keep believing he is the coolest guy on the planet. I just want the truth.

well... i just told you the truth.
you make the decision.
if you have a problem with dark tobacco water on your dark tobacco cigars, then so be it. most companies dont dye cigars. consumers know and can taste it. they go under fast or change their ways.

mountains of molehills.

kuzi16

Gray4lines:
There is also a debate on the actual maduro process. Is steaming or speedig up the process cheating? Many believe the quicker process produces an inferior maduro wrapper. You also get a darker, more even leaf with the speedy process (I think).

yes it is cheating. the fermentation is all about developing the sugars. steam cannot do this, but it can darken.

you are right about the evenness of the color in the short cut.

a good maduro will have some color variation. it will not look uniform. the leaf will have some lighter spots and some darker. look at an LFD ligero Maduro. thats a "true" maduro with a good amount of color variation.

Bob Luken

youngryan216:
I also think that we should start some sort of campaign that cigar manufacturers can be a part of to inform smokers on exactly what is being used on their cigars.

Would anyone here or by extension, anyone you know, be interested in signing a petition to get cigar makers to reveal if they dye their products or not?

Fight with me.

Who's with me?!!! Let's GO! AHHHHhhhhhh,

FireRob

Pop corn! Get your popcorn!

Bob your the best! Speaking of such, any one want to share Bob Luken's address. It's time I introduce my self

Bob Luken

Now you stop that! Really now, I'm allergic to bus tires.

FireRob

Arnt we all? Lucky for us there is a cure for our allergy

raisindot

Honestly? If smoking cigars wasn't such an act of cognitive dissonance in its own right I'd be far less worrid about dyes and oils and far more worried about the pesticides and other potential life-threatening chemicals that are most likely involved in the cultivation of tobacco. I would surmise that the tobacco plantations of the Dominican Republic, Central America and other nations aren't regulated in any meaningful way, which means that possibly anything could be going into that stogie. The idea that any cigar is "100% natural" is a pipedream.

But, I never think about such things whilst lighting up. You can't possibly smoke anything if you do.

youngryan216

raisindot:
Honestly? If smoking cigars wasn't such an act of cognitive dissonance in its own right I'd be far less worrid about dyes and oils and far more worried about the pesticides and other potential life-threatening chemicals that are most likely involved in the cultivation of tobacco. I would surmise that the tobacco plantations of the Dominican Republic, Central America and other nations aren't regulated in any meaningful way, which means that possibly anything could be going into that stogie. The idea that any cigar is "100% natural" is a pipedream.

But, I never think about such things whilst lighting up. You can't possibly smoke anything if you do.

Well put. But where's the accountability?

FireRob

FireRob:
any one want to share Bob Luken's address.

Got just what I needed! Thanks "you know who" ;-)

Bob Luken

FireRob:
FireRob:
any one want to share Bob Luken's address.
Got just what I needed! Thanks "you know who" ;-)

You sure? Only three people know the new addy? LOL

FireRob

Bob Luken:
FireRob:
FireRob:
any one want to share Bob Luken's address.
Got just what I needed! Thanks "you know who" ;-)
You sure? Only three people know the new addy? LOL

Id say my source is very reliable

FireRob

Matter of fact does

800

Sound like the numbers of the new address?

Rhamlin

It's not a dye per say but a wash made from tobacco to add nicotine( hence stronger since you can only reach a certain amount of nicotine without adding it) and to darken it. Rule of thump if it's pitch black is been treated is what Ive been told by reliable sources.

kuzi16

Rhamlin:
It's not a dye per say but a wash made from tobacco to add nicotine( hence stronger since you can only reach a certain amount of nicotine without adding it) and to darken it. Rule of thump if it's pitch black is been treated is what Ive been told by reliable sources.

... or it could be an oscuro. those cure on the plant a little then they ferment heavily. i guess then there is still some variation but since it is so dark its sometimes hard to tell.

jgibv

youngryan216:
raisindot:
Honestly? If smoking cigars wasn't such an act of cognitive dissonance in its own right I'd be far less worrid about dyes and oils and far more worried about the pesticides and other potential life-threatening chemicals that are most likely involved in the cultivation of tobacco. I would surmise that the tobacco plantations of the Dominican Republic, Central America and other nations aren't regulated in any meaningful way, which means that possibly anything could be going into that stogie. The idea that any cigar is "100% natural" is a pipedream.

But, I never think about such things whilst lighting up. You can't possibly smoke anything if you do.
Well put. But where's the accountability?

In the US, it would be the EPA's job ..... "All pesticides used in the United States are regulated by federal and state law."

I've never looked into it, so I can't be certain ---- but I'd be inclined to think that the EPA has international programs, especially with NAFTA & CAFTA members.

As long as the cigar smokes well and tastes good, I could care less if they used dyes to even out the color.
I couldn't agree more with what Kuzi said a couple posts back, especially this part:

kuzi16:
there are not any reputable cigar companies that dye cigars to pull a fast one. those guys get outed fast and you can taste a difference.

FireRob

FireRob:
Matter of fact does

800

Sound like the numbers of the new address?

Bob, can you confirm or deny the new address for me? Got it all boxed up just needs a lable.

90+ Irishman

kuzi16:
Gray4lines:
There is also a debate on the actual maduro process. Is steaming or speedig up the process cheating? Many believe the quicker process produces an inferior maduro wrapper. You also get a darker, more even leaf with the speedy process (I think).
yes it is cheating. the fermentation is all about developing the sugars. steam cannot do this, but it can darken.

you are right about the evenness of the color in the short cut.

a good maduro will have some color variation. it will not look uniform. the leaf will have some lighter spots and some darker. look at an LFD ligero Maduro. thats a "true" maduro with a good amount of color variation.

Agreed Matt, LFD and Tatuaje are two of the best examples I can think of off the top of my head where their addy wrapper leaves have a pretty wide range of color variation and their sticks are some of my favs.... I like Maddies that have that color differential so that I can easily see that it's the real deal and those imperfections help to prove that it hasn't been "messed" with.

90+ Irishman

A hand made product should have some variances and small mistakes naturally, that shows it's hand made because a human being rolled it and well.... Humans make mistakes, hence human error. If I want a "perfect" cigar visually I will buy machine made. Since I don't buy machine made guess what, I like the variances, makes each one exceptionally unique even from the same box

youngryan216

Agreed.