Bitcoin

chrislolds

Wondering how many of the BOTLs out there are bitcoin users?

Thanatos0320

Nope, I can't find a good enough to get any. Bitcoin is just too unstable.

raisindot

Bitcoin is just about the biggest scam ever perpetrated. An imaginary currency, not backed by any government or tangible collateral, totally unregulated and totally susceptible to manipulation and theft. It's the new Ponzi scheme for millenials.

Gray4lines

I just recently heard about this and how it works... very weird. I suppose the idea was to mimic a gold standard i.e. the stock is fixed and the only way to increase the total stock of bitcoin is to crack codes and "mine" for it. That way it is not susceptible to inflation. It's interesting, but id never use it. Government backed isnt all that comforting but as raisindot said this isnt backed by sh!t

chrislolds

raisindot:

Bitcoin is just about the biggest scam ever perpetrated. An imaginary currency, not backed by any government or tangible collateral, totally unregulated and totally susceptible to manipulation and theft. It's the new Ponzi scheme for millenials.

You haven't researched it much have you?

raisindot

chrislolds:

raisindot:

Bitcoin is just about the biggest scam ever perpetrated. An imaginary currency, not backed by any government or tangible collateral, totally unregulated and totally susceptible to manipulation and theft. It's the new Ponzi scheme for millenials.

You haven't researched it much have you?

Yes, I have. Extensively. The potential for fraud, theft and artificial manipulation--aided by the power and speed of the Internet--makes Madoff look like three-card monte by comparison. But, hey, if people want to spend real money to lose imaginary money, all the power to them.

chrislolds

raisindot:

chrislolds:

raisindot:

Bitcoin is just about the biggest scam ever perpetrated. An imaginary currency, not backed by any government or tangible collateral, totally unregulated and totally susceptible to manipulation and theft. It's the new Ponzi scheme for millenials.

You haven't researched it much have you?

Yes, I have. Extensively. The potential for fraud, theft and artificial manipulation--aided by the power and speed of the Internet--makes Madoff look like three-card monte by comparison. But, hey, if people want to spend real money to lose imaginary money, all the power to them.

How is the potential for theft any greater than with cash?
EDIT: and furthermore, how would you expect one to manipulate it?

Thanatos0320

raisindot:

chrislolds:

raisindot:

Bitcoin is just about the biggest scam ever perpetrated. An imaginary currency, not backed by any government or tangible collateral, totally unregulated and totally susceptible to manipulation and theft. It's the new Ponzi scheme for millenials.

You haven't researched it much have you?

Yes, I have. Extensively. The potential for fraud, theft and artificial manipulation--aided by the power and speed of the Internet--makes Madoff look like three-card monte by comparison. But, hey, if people want to spend real money to lose imaginary money, all the power to them.

People don't care so long as they're rich on paper, or it says they're making money on paper.

Rain

ejgorman

raisindot:

Yes, I have. Extensively. The potential for fraud, theft and artificial manipulation--aided by the power and speed of the Internet--makes Madoff look like three-card monte by comparison. But, hey, if people want to spend real money to lose imaginary money, all the power to them.

You could just as easily be talking about the US dollar only you'd need to add Volcker, Greenspan, Bernanke and Yellen to your list of crooks. Any currency's usefulness as a medium of exchange lasts only as long as people's confidence in it. Most "money" these days exists as a series of 1s and 0s anyway, so why not Bitcoin?

Patrickbrick

Cash is backed, regulated and insured by every government in the world. It has actual value that may flucatate, but has actual backed value. Bitcoins only value is what people say they are worth. Not a single government in the world views this a actual currency, or any value worth insuring. In fact one of the largest companies dealing with these sold for real cash and ran. Look it up. The owner has not been touched, due to what did he steal.

wwhwang

Patrickbrick:

Not a single government in the world views this a actual currency, or any value worth insuring.

Not going to take one side or the other on this issue, but part of me believes that most media outlets and governments won't back it because they can't control or restrict where the bitcoins (or money spent on bitcoins) go.

For example, if country A's government wants to outlaw online gambling from a server hosted in country B (or ban trade/business transactions between two countries), they can do so when it comes to cash transactions, but cannot do so with bitcoins or any variation of online currency.

ejgorman

Patrickbrick:

Cash is backed, regulated and insured by every government in the world. It has actual value that may flucatate, but has actual backed value. Bitcoins only value is what people say they are worth. Not a single government in the world views this a actual currency, or any value worth insuring. In fact one of the largest companies dealing with these sold for real cash and ran. Look it up. The owner has not been touched, due to what did he steal.

Fiat currency by definition is not "backed" by anything. Our dollars are not backed by anything and are only valuable because the government says so. They aren't even "regulated" by the government. We've entrusted that to an organization that has no accountability to the American government or people. I'm not arguing that we should abandon all government currencies and convert to Bitcoin. All currency exists because a strict barter system is inconvenient and any medium of exchange has value only because those engaging in the transaction have confidence in its value.

perkinke

Patrickbrick:

Cash is backed, regulated and insured by every government in the world. It has actual value that may flucatate, but has actual backed value. Bitcoins only value is what people say they are worth. Not a single government in the world views this a actual currency, or any value worth insuring. In fact one of the largest companies dealing with these sold for real cash and ran. Look it up. The owner has not been touched, due to what did he steal.

One of the other issues is that the institutions that trade in bitcoin are not insured in anyway. In a traditional bank your deposits are insured up to $100k in standard accounts. There have been at least two bitcoin traders that I can think of who have either gone under or cut and ran with everyone's money and the folks who invested are not able to recover a dime. There is a very good reason the variety of currencies, and also the markets for precious metals, became tightly regulated, it really only takes a brief examination of the history of currencies to understand the inherent problems in systems like bitcoin. It always amuses me that people think this is somehow a new concept, as a BOTL said before, this is very similar to gold and its value is entirely dependent on what the next person will pay for it. The difference is with gold at least a person had a physical substance to trade or own which they could conceivably take somewhere else, not so with bitcoins. Honestly, to me it seems more like the baseball card trading I used to do as a kid than a legitimate currency, anyone else remember the Billy Ripken error card?

Puff_Dougie

Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History, by Gary North - an in-depth economic analysis of bitcoins.

ejgorman

Puff_Dougie:

Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History, by Gary North - an in-depth economic analysis of bitcoins.

Pulling out a libertarian analysis! I knew I liked you Doug lol! I like Gary North and have read a lot of his articles. Tom Woods and Peter Schiff, also of the Austrian camp, have different (or at least more undecided) views. Bitcoin is an interesting phenomenon and seems to spark debate even among like-minded individuals. Truth be told, if there ever is an economic collapse, there will be no internet to use for the exchange of Bitcoins so $>Bitcoin. Ultimately though, it's the individuals engaging in a transaction that give the medium of exchange value.

Amos Umwhat

ejgorman:

raisindot:

Yes, I have. Extensively. The potential for fraud, theft and artificial manipulation--aided by the power and speed of the Internet--makes Madoff look like three-card monte by comparison. But, hey, if people want to spend real money to lose imaginary money, all the power to them.

You could just as easily be talking about the US dollar only you'd need to add Volcker, Greenspan, Bernanke and Yellen to your list of crooks. Any currency's usefulness as a medium of exchange lasts only as long as people's confidence in it. Most "money" these days exists as a series of 1s and 0s anyway, so why not Bitcoin?

The difference being that Volcker, Greenspan et al's scheme is backed by the worlds most powerful military. "Because I said so..." takes on real meaning, where the gold left off.

Puff_Dougie

ejgorman:

Puff_Dougie:

Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History, by Gary North - an in-depth economic analysis of bitcoins.

Pulling out a libertarian analysis! I knew I liked you Doug lol! I like Gary North and have read a lot of his articles. Tom Woods and Peter Schiff, also of the Austrian camp, have different (or at least more undecided) views. Bitcoin is an interesting phenomenon and seems to spark debate even among like-minded individuals. Truth be told, if there ever is an economic collapse, there will be no internet to use for the exchange of Bitcoins so $>Bitcoin. Ultimately though, it's the individuals engaging in a transaction that give the medium of exchange value.

North is a bit of an odd duck (he stayed at my house once while speaking at a conference in the early 90's). But his knowledge of history and economics is encyclopedic. My favorite line from that article is: "When someone suggests a scheme for introducing new money, hold on to your old money."

Puff_Dougie

In a perfect world, cigars would be currency. :^)

Gray4lines

Puff_Dougie:

In a perfect world, cigars would be currency. :^)

they pretty much are around here!

Rain

Do you even bitcoin, bro?

raisindot

ejgorman:

raisindot:

Yes, I have. Extensively. The potential for fraud, theft and artificial manipulation--aided by the power and speed of the Internet--makes Madoff look like three-card monte by comparison. But, hey, if people want to spend real money to lose imaginary money, all the power to them.

You could just as easily be talking about the US dollar only you'd need to add Volcker, Greenspan, Bernanke and Yellen to your list of crooks. Any currency's usefulness as a medium of exchange lasts only as long as people's confidence in it. Most "money" these days exists as a series of 1s and 0s anyway, so why not Bitcoin?

Right now I can walk into any nearly bank in the world and exchange dollars for local currencies. The deposits in my bank account are insured against fraud up to $250,000. Assets in my money market fund held by my broker are insured up to $500,000 should fraud or bankruptcy for reasons unrelated to the market itself. If I buy and sell stocks, the market has controls that can negate and reverse free-fall trading caused by network manipulation. If someone tries to drive down the price of gold by selling huge reserves, governments will buy some of it to maintain price stability. Yes, if I'm a stupid trader who buys high and sells low, market times, or places my trust in unregistered hedge funds or Madoff-like swindlders, I will lose my short. But at least in some of the cases I can use the courts to at least try to get my money back. Bitcoin, on the other hand, isn't insured at all. Lose your shirt and it's gone.

bandyt09

perkinke:

Patrickbrick:

Cash is backed, regulated and insured by every government in the world. It has actual value that may flucatate, but has actual backed value. Bitcoins only value is what people say they are worth. Not a single government in the world views this a actual currency, or any value worth insuring. In fact one of the largest companies dealing with these sold for real cash and ran. Look it up. The owner has not been touched, due to what did he steal.

One of the other issues is that the institutions that trade in bitcoin are not insured in anyway. In a traditional bank your deposits are insured up to $100k in standard accounts. There have been at least two bitcoin traders that I can think of who have either gone under or cut and ran with everyone's money and the folks who invested are not able to recover a dime. There is a very good reason the variety of currencies, and also the markets for precious metals, became tightly regulated, it really only takes a brief examination of the history of currencies to understand the inherent problems in systems like bitcoin. It always amuses me that people think this is somehow a new concept, as a BOTL said before, this is very similar to gold and its value is entirely dependent on what the next person will pay for it. The difference is with gold at least a person had a physical substance to trade or own which they could conceivably take somewhere else, not so with bitcoins. Honestly, to me it seems more like the baseball card trading I used to do as a kid than a legitimate currency, anyone else remember the Billy Ripken error card?

F*ck Face on the bat knob. Yeah, I owned a few......

chrislolds

Well, I seemed to have touched on a subject similar to that of religion and politics. It seems to be a passionate subject with a lot of people who have opinions on both sides that are based more on opinion and feelings than facts.

If anyone is curious on anything to do with bitcoin or would like some for free let me know, I'd be happy to answer any questions from a factual and or technical standpoint. Seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

PM me if you're curious on it at all, have any questions, would like some or even if you'd like to privately debate either side of bitcoin(in a rational fact driven debate, not emotional )

Rain

CCom Deputy here...seems fine to me.

raisindot

chrislolds:

Well, I seemed to have touched on a subject similar to that of religion and politics. It seems to be a passionate subject with a lot of people who have opinions on both sides that are based more on opinion and feelings than facts.

If anyone is curious on anything to do with bitcoin or would like some for free let me know, I'd be happy to answer any questions from a factual and or technical standpoint. Seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

PM me if you're curious on it at all, have any questions, would like some or even if you'd like to privately debate either side of bitcoin(in a rational fact driven debate, not emotional )

With all due respect, sir, did you expect when starting this topic that everyone's comments would reflect your point of view? In THIS area of the forum of all places, LOL?

And, honestly, sir, given that you seem to be suggesting that some who cite the numerous well-documented risks about Bitcom are "misinformed" or "emotional," may I ask, as politely as possible, would you have posted the same message above if people had come out with "emotional" and "misinformed" arguments in favor of Bitcoin?

Puff_Dougie

raisindot:

chrislolds:

Well, I seemed to have touched on a subject similar to that of religion and politics. It seems to be a passionate subject with a lot of people who have opinions on both sides that are based more on opinion and feelings than facts.

If anyone is curious on anything to do with bitcoin or would like some for free let me know, I'd be happy to answer any questions from a factual and or technical standpoint. Seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

PM me if you're curious on it at all, have any questions, would like some or even if you'd like to privately debate either side of bitcoin(in a rational fact driven debate, not emotional )

With all due respect, sir, did you expect when starting this topic that everyone's comments would reflect your point of view? In THIS area of the forum of all places, LOL?

And, honestly, sir, given that you seem to be suggesting that some who cite the numerous well-documented risks about Bitcom are "misinformed" or "emotional," may I ask, as politely as possible, would you have posted the same message above if people had come out with "emotional" and "misinformed" arguments in favor of Bitcoin?

Honestly, I had the same thoughts, Chris. I have read and re-read the responses in this thread, and I don't see anything I would classify as emotion-based. It seems unfair in discussing a topic to label an opposite opinion "mis-informed" or factually inadequate simply because it differs from your own. Critics of bitcoin base their position on economic analysis and factual data. You have the prerogative of disagreeing with their arguments, but to dismiss them as ignorant or emotional is not justified.

Amos Umwhat

So far, all of the arguements against bitcoin seem to be fact based, rational, logical and true. Why the accusation otherwise? I don't understand. Are you seriously invested in bitcoin, Chris? Maybe you have a stake in it, I don't, and won't until I see some fact based, rational, logical and true arguements for their use. Meanwhile, I do believe in barter, real products for real services. That's something I could get behind.

chrislolds

raisindot:

chrislolds:

Well, I seemed to have touched on a subject similar to that of religion and politics. It seems to be a passionate subject with a lot of people who have opinions on both sides that are based more on opinion and feelings than facts.

If anyone is curious on anything to do with bitcoin or would like some for free let me know, I'd be happy to answer any questions from a factual and or technical standpoint. Seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

PM me if you're curious on it at all, have any questions, would like some or even if you'd like to privately debate either side of bitcoin(in a rational fact driven debate, not emotional )

With all due respect, sir, did you expect when starting this topic that everyone's comments would reflect your point of view? In THIS area of the forum of all places, LOL?

And, honestly, sir, given that you seem to be suggesting that some who cite the numerous well-documented risks about Bitcom are "misinformed" or "emotional," may I ask, as politely as possible, would you have posted the same message above if people had come out with "emotional" and "misinformed" arguments in favor of Bitcoin?

I like to be rational with facts rather than misinformation and opinions. I believe everyone is entitled to opinions and it makes for interesting people and personalities but I don't believe people should use opinions in debates.

I'll post on some of the misinformation on both sides of the coin, give me a little bit as I'm at work.

And I didn't come out and say you were wrong when I asked questions regarding your previous statements, I asked you to explain your point of view so that everyone could see why you felt they are "totally susceptible to manipulation" and "potential for theft and fraud" to be greater than something like cash? I'd like to understand your point of view on these with your facts rather than just taking someones word for it that they think it is that way, tell us all why you believe this. I was opening this up for a debate based on facts vs opinions. What have you cited? I think you've misinterpreted me as I haven't posted any of my opinions on bitcoin in this thread other than stating I believe people are misinformed because of the lack of creditable references or a thorough understanding of the technology involved...

Please re-read my comments.

chrislolds

I purchased around $100 dollars in bitcoins a few years ago, I've made several thousand off of it but only currently have around $2000 worth of bitcoin now.

I look at it as a very interesting piece of technology and an amazing tool in certain circumstances. It has made me quite a bit of money over the years, but that is second to the technical aspect of it for me. I know a lot of people within the bitcoin community and at one time I was a big part of the community.

It's not a perfect implmentation, and their are flaws with it, but so many people have gathered misinformation and spread misinformation on it purely because of a lack of technical understanding of the underlying technology involved.

I'll go through some of the incorrect statements on this thread so far, and if anyone has questions I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge, I can also cite refrences for what I say if people doubt it.

I don't care one way or another if the answers are good or bad for bitcoin, I just like factual statements.

And I'd honestly prefer if bitcoins crashed to a more reasonable level, in my opinion they are overpriced right now and all I am doing is occasionally selling mine without buying more.

Thanatos0320

chrislolds:

I purchased around $100 dollars in bitcoins a few years ago, I've made several thousand off of it but only currently have around $2000 worth of bitcoin now.

That was a great time to buy bitcoin because it was before all of the hype. Do you ever do technical analysis on bitcoins or are you more fundamental? I know a few guys who are really into bitcoins and they are always looking at chart patterns with this stuff.