E-cig and cigar regulations...

Check out this article from USA TODAY:
FDA to restrict e-cigarettes, cigars
http://usat.ly/1hmhtMM
Dafuq is this? Just came out over USA today like 30 minutes ago. Anyone heard anything about this or am I behind the curve?

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brianetz1

Jetmech_63:
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
FDA to restrict e-cigarettes, cigars
http://usat.ly/1hmhtMM
Dafuq is this? Just came out over USA today like 30 minutes ago. Anyone heard anything about this or am I behind the curve?

From the article

They also ban free tobacco samples

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

MY precious contests!!!!!!

Gray4lines

FDA Has to "approve" all ingredients... does that go for cigars too? As in "hey AJ you cant release this blend unil we say its ok."

also, says ecigs can be regulated as tobacco product "since the nicotine is derived from tobacco" What if it wasnt? Other plants have nicotine.... would they not be able to regulate them if any other source of nicotine were used? Same product... same effect... but since tobacco is an input, it must be terrible. I guess the govt should regulate hemp sales too, since it comes from you know where.

I would also love to see how many people the "surge of illnesses related to liquid nicotine" really affected...

kuzi16

Jetmech_63:
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
FDA to restrict e-cigarettes, cigars
http://usat.ly/1hmhtMM
Dafuq is this? Just came out over USA today like 30 minutes ago. Anyone heard anything about this or am I behind the curve?

the government already regulates EVERYTHING. why is this any different?

clearly people should never be able to decide for themselves on anything. ever.

brianetz1

Halfwheel has better news and more information on the cigar aspects of this

HALFWHEEL

webmost

sig HEIL!

raisindot

Contrary to all the fearmongering perpetrated by the cigar companies, nothing in these regulations restricts the trade and marketing of e-cigarettes or cigars at all. I don't see anything wrong with requiring manufacturers to disclose substances (particularly chemicals) used in the manufacture of tobacco-based products. Right now, for example, I have no idea whether the cigar I'm smoking may contain all sorts of cancerous chemicals used both in its manufacture and in connection with it. Considering that countries like Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic are far less regulated than the U.S. is, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we're smoking tobacco that's been laced with DDT and other cancer-causing chemicals used in pesticides and fertilizers. I probably wouldn't go so far as requiring disclosure of the chemicals on every single cigar, but I don't think there would be anything wrong in disclosing this information on, say, a box, the wrapping around a mazo or on a pack.

brianetz1

raisindot:
Contrary to all the fearmongering perpetrated by the cigar companies, nothing in these regulations restricts the trade and marketing of e-cigarettes or cigars at all. I don't see anything wrong with requiring manufacturers to disclose substances (particularly chemicals) used in the manufacture of tobacco-based products. Right now, for example, I have no idea whether the cigar I'm smoking may contain all sorts of cancerous chemicals used both in its manufacture and in connection with it. Considering that countries like Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic are far less regulated than the U.S. is, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we're smoking tobacco that's been laced with DDT and other cancer-causing chemicals used in pesticides and fertilizers. I probably wouldn't go so far as requiring disclosure of the chemicals on every single cigar, but I don't think there would be anything wrong in disclosing this information on, say, a box, the wrapping around a mazo or on a pack.

the issue is that the bigger manufacturers this doesn't hurt as much because they own their own farms. Where this hurts is the little boutique and short batch cigar companies who hunt for specific tobacco to blend into a cigar. The process of the FDA approving each and every leaf of tobacco that is put in their cigars would be cost and time prohibitive. AT least that is what is being said by the smaller companies like Crowned Heads, Viaje, and even Tatuaje. Basically it would mean that those companies would only be able to come out with 1 new offering a year, would all but kill the LEs and it would be much harder for a smaller company to get going because if they swung and missed with their first cigar the money and time spent getting the company off the ground would basically kill the company.

Bob Luken

As I understand it, the FDA is "proposing" these regulations. These proposed changes are not a done deal. But I'm not sure who makes the call on allowing the FDA to green-light these new rules. Congress?

I too am curious about what residual chemicals may be present in our cigars. I hear of fumigation for beetles. What do they use for that? What fertilizers are used in the field, and what remains in the leaf?

But, here's what seems obvious to me. The biggest change to cigar enthusiasts would be if the FDA gets this power of oversight and final approval of "ingredients" for new products. Within the past year, how many new cigar blends have been brought to market? Lots of them. How many new blends will be brought to market in the year after the FDA gets to call the shots on "ingredients"?

Tobacco haters getting to call the shots on blenders "ingredients" will effectively put a chill on innovation in new blends. It could take years to get the FDA to put their stamp of approval on a new blend. We know how efficeint the guv'ment is, don't we? Not to mention how costly these proposals and delays would be for the cigar makers. Costs will be passed on to us.

And, would existing blends be grandfathered in and escape this oversight?

brianetz1

Bob Luken:
As I understand it, the FDA is "proposing" these regulations. These proposed changes are not a done deal. But I'm not sure who makes the call on allowing the FDA to green-light these new rules. Congress?

I too am curious about what residual chemicals may be present in our cigars. I hear of fumigation for beetles. What do they use for that? What fertilizers are used in the field, and what remains in the leaf?

But, here's what seems obvious to me. The biggest change to cigar enthusiasts would be if the FDA gets this power of oversight and final approval of "ingredients" for new products. Within the past year, how many new cigar blends have been brought to market? Lots of them. How many new blends will be brought to market in the year after the FDA gets to call the shots on "ingredients"?

Tobacco haters getting to call the shots on blenders "ingredients" will effectively put a chill on innovation in new blends. It could take years to get the FDA to put their stamp of approval on a new blend. We know how efficeint the guv'ment is, don't we? Not to mention how costly these proposals and delays would be for the cigar makers. Costs will be passed on to us.

And, would existing blends be grandfathered in and escape this oversight?

yep, this is exactly what the little guys who bled with a lot of different leafs are saying.

no grandfathering at all in the current proposal, but there will be a 2 year time frame in which cigar makers would need to submit their ingredients.

raisindot

We're all basing this on an article, rather than the proposed regulations themselves.

It really looks like this is aimed almost squarely at e-cigarettes, and not cigars. I really doubt that the FDA has the capacity or the desire to sit there, evaluate and approve every one of the 10,000 blends Drew Estates and Rock Patel alone seem to put out every week. If they did, we would already have had the same kind of warning label restrictions on cigars that we have on cigarettes.

E-cigarettes are entirely different, because their manufactures do position them as "healthier" alternatives to cigarettes. This is garbage, and it needs to be treated as such.

Considering how many bogus products like vitamins and health supplements the FDA allows to be sold without approving them or requiring them to "prove" their snake-oil claims, I really doubt that the FDA is going to get into the cigar-evaluating-and-approval business.

There are so many far more important things in life to worry about--I don't think this is one of them.

brianetz1

raisindot:
We're all basing this on an article, rather than the proposed regulations themselves.

It really looks like this is aimed almost squarely at e-cigarettes, and not cigars. I really doubt that the FDA has the capacity or the desire to sit there, evaluate and approve every one of the 10,000 blends Drew Estates and Rock Patel alone seem to put out every week. If they did, we would already have had the same kind of warning label restrictions on cigars that we have on cigarettes.

E-cigarettes are entirely different, because their manufactures do position them as "healthier" alternatives to cigarettes. This is garbage, and it needs to be treated as such.

Considering how many bogus products like vitamins and health supplements the FDA allows to be sold without approving them or requiring them to "prove" their snake-oil claims, I really doubt that the FDA is going to get into the cigar-evaluating-and-approval business.

There are so many far more important things in life to worry about--I don't think this is one of them.

yes and no. The ruling was just released and while it is "aimed" at ecigs (as it should be) as of right now the FDA has language in there to apply those same rules to the cigar industry........hence the panic. The one good thing is the 75 day public comment period. That means they are seriously considering making premium cigars exempt.

brianetz1

this came from a guy on reddit who is reading the whole thing. it sounds a little worry some for us budget conscious smokers:

Page 32: Under Option 1, the proposed rule would extend FDA's authority to all products meeting the definition of "tobacco product," except the accessories of such products. (See section IV.E for more information regarding FDA's proposal not to include accessories in the scope of this rule). This scope would include all cigars, including small, large, and premium cigars. FDA considers a cigar to be a tobacco product that: (1) Is not a cigarette and (2) is a roll of tobacco wrapped in leaf tobacco or any substance containing tobacco. (See 26 U.S.C. 5702(a)). Under Option 2, the proposed rule would extend FDA's authority to a subset of cigars (defined as "covered cigars") and to other products meeting the definition of "tobacco product," except the accessories of such products. In order to define the products that would be subject to this approach, FDA would propose to define a covered cigar to mean: any cigar as defined in this part, except a cigar that: (1) Is wrapped in whole tobacco leaf; (2) contains a 100 percent leaf tobacco binder; (3) contains primarily long filler tobacco; (4) is made by combining manually the wrapper, filler, and binder; (5) has no filter, tip, or non-tobacco mouthpiece and is capped by hand; (6) has a retail price (after any discounts or coupons) of no less than $10 per cigar (adjusted, as necessary, every 2 years, effective July 1st, to account for any increases in the price of tobacco products since the last price adjustment); (7) does not have a characterizing flavor other than tobacco; and (8) weighs more than 6 pounds per 1000 units.

ShadowInTheMoon

Sounds like its gonna be cheaper to start a farm in my backyard

humanash

This is worrisome for sure. I like that there is the possibility for treating cigars differently, but that definition leaves out an awful big chunk of what I would consider to be "premium cigars". Doesn't look to me like the sky is falling, but I know I'll be submitting a comment in once they open the window. I found out a lot more on an info page that Famous set up for this stuff - http://www.famous-smoke.com/smokers-rights/index.html

raisindot

I just want to point out the irony here that, considering the amount of skepticism many of us here (on all sides of the spectrum) have about the oversized influence of lobbyists and Big Money on the political process, it's the cigar and tobacco lobby that is going to be greasing the wheels of the bureaucrats and Congressmen to come up with an outcome favorable to us consumers.

Amos Umwhat

raisindot:
I just want to point out the irony here that, considering the amount of skepticism many of us here (on all sides of the spectrum) have about the oversized influence of lobbyists and Big Money on the political process, it's the cigar and tobacco lobby that is going to be greasing the wheels of the bureaucrats and Congressmen to come up with an outcome favorable to us consumers.

It is ironic, almost funny if it didn't hit so close to home, but as the Supreme Court makes sure we all understand:

"Money Talks & BS walks"

I guess I'll be contacting "my" representatives, again, and trying to convince them that even though I'm not a single parent (anymore), a member of a recognized minority (those descended from Irish slaves or Scots forced from their homelands don't count), or LGBT, or anything like that, I should have a right to my lifestyle choices, too.

humanash

raisindot:
I just want to point out the irony here that, considering the amount of skepticism many of us here (on all sides of the spectrum) have about the oversized influence of lobbyists and Big Money on the political process, it's the cigar and tobacco lobby that is going to be greasing the wheels of the bureaucrats and Congressmen to come up with an outcome favorable to us consumers.

if you can't beat 'em....

Bob Luken

Option two doesn't sound so bad since they wound generally exempt hand made cigars except they are way off on the price. There are plenty of "whole leaf wrapped" "mostly long filler" that are half that price and less. I understand that they (FDA) want cigars to be priced too high for kids to get but dammit, I like my daily deal $4.oo cigars and I ain't no kid.

SleevePlz

Bob Luken:
The biggest change to cigar enthusiasts would be if the FDA gets this power of oversight and final approval of "ingredients" for new products. Within the past year, how many new cigar blends have been brought to market? Lots of them. How many new blends will be brought to market in the year after the FDA gets to call the shots on "ingredients"?

Aren't the ingredients of cigars just "tobacco"? Does the FDA care which priming, which farm, how long it is fermented, etc (i.e. the things that make it different to us)? Maybe I'm wrong, but the "ingredients" are simply tobacco, right?

raisindot

SleevePlz:
Bob Luken:
The biggest change to cigar enthusiasts would be if the FDA gets this power of oversight and final approval of "ingredients" for new products. Within the past year, how many new cigar blends have been brought to market? Lots of them. How many new blends will be brought to market in the year after the FDA gets to call the shots on "ingredients"?
Aren't the ingredients of cigars just "tobacco"? Does the FDA care which priming, which farm, how long it is fermented, etc (i.e. the things that make it different to us)? Maybe I'm wrong, but the "ingredients" are simply tobacco, right?

I think that's sort of the point of this whole thing---to get disclosure on what really goes into these things. I mean, most people used to think that the only thing in cigarettes were tobacco, too...turns out cigarettes have all kinds of totally nasty chemicals in them. Problem here is that even if a cigar is only tobacco, none of us really know what the tobacco farmers and rollers use when they're making them--for all we know, they could be lacing using all kinds of cancerous fertilizers and insecticides in the tobacco fields and using all kinds of chemicals in the harvesting and rolling process. And god knows how often and if the rollers wash their hands...I think smoking anything involves a great denial of cognitive dissonance no matter what it is....

0patience

raisindot:
for all we know, they could be lacing using all kinds of cancerous fertilizers and insecticides in the tobacco fields and using all kinds of chemicals in the harvesting and rolling process. And god knows how often and if the rollers wash their hands...I think smoking anything involves a great denial of cognitive dissonance no matter what it is....

Yes, because there is some benefit to the growers and sellers for them to "lace" the tobacco.
Really?

FYI, some tobacco growers are using CO2 to kill off beetles on their tobacco.
It's becoming a popular procedure.

Bob Luken

SleevePlz:
Bob Luken:
The biggest change to cigar enthusiasts would be if the FDA gets this power of oversight and final approval of "ingredients" for new products. Within the past year, how many new cigar blends have been brought to market? Lots of them. How many new blends will be brought to market in the year after the FDA gets to call the shots on "ingredients"?
Aren't the ingredients of cigars just "tobacco"? Does the FDA care which priming, which farm, how long it is fermented, etc (i.e. the things that make it different to us)? Maybe I'm wrong, but the "ingredients" are simply tobacco, right?

I remember a while back someone was interviewing Rocky Patel and he was warning that if the FDA got these new regs passed, each time a new blend was introduced the feds would treat it as an entirely separate "new" product and the new blend would undergo a separate application and review for approval with the FDA. He made it sound like it would be an extensive scientific procedure to examine the unique properties and quantities of things like nicotine content for each blend. Similar to food labels.

perkinke

Bob Luken:
SleevePlz:
Bob Luken:
The biggest change to cigar enthusiasts would be if the FDA gets this power of oversight and final approval of "ingredients" for new products. Within the past year, how many new cigar blends have been brought to market? Lots of them. How many new blends will be brought to market in the year after the FDA gets to call the shots on "ingredients"?
Aren't the ingredients of cigars just "tobacco"? Does the FDA care which priming, which farm, how long it is fermented, etc (i.e. the things that make it different to us)? Maybe I'm wrong, but the "ingredients" are simply tobacco, right?
I remember a while back someone was interviewing Rocky Patel and he was warning that if the FDA got these new regs passed, each time a new blend was introduced the feds would treat it as an entirely separate "new" product and the new blend would undergo a separate application and review for approval with the FDA. He made it sound like it would be an extensive scientific procedure to examine the unique properties and quantities of things like nicotine content for each blend. Similar to food labels.

One note on the process question, the FDA sets their regs with some oversight from the particular Congressional committee that has oversight (don't know which one that is off the top of my head) but they are required to publish the proposal in the Federal Register for a comment period. If comments are recieved they are required to consider and address them. Does this change the proposed regulations? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. They can be challenged in a special process in federal court but that is usually based only on whether the agency over stepped its authority, whether it property followed the administrative acts, and whether the regulations directly relate to what they are trying to accomplish (from what I remember from my admin law class anyway).

the fear over the ingredient issue is probably unfounded. Does Bayer have to have separate approval every time they slightly modify their aspirin? Not as long as they use ingredients known to be safe and I see no reason to suspect they'd do anything different. What this is really aimed at is flavored cigars, flavored tobacco for hookahs and e-cigs. I think the infused cigars may have greater oversight but once a brand shows the ingredients are nothing but naturally grown tobacco (I don't mean "organic" I mean not doused in chemicals as part of the process somewhere or lab grown) I think new lines wouldn't have any more scrutiny than they do now. Besides, it could be years before the FDA has the time to act on any of this, they are severely understaffed and have a hard time keeping up with lifesaving or lethal drugs let alone consumer items.

phobicsquirrel

Guess cigars will continue to be screwed with until they are illegal. Well good news is I probably have enough cigars to last me the rest of my life so any new changes can go f themselves. I do find this stuff too tiresome. Be nice if the govt spent this much effort on gas and oil companies or banks that tanked our economy........ But no, e cigarettes and cigars are a clear and present danger.

ShadowInTheMoon

I do think its funny they will let you smoke Pot in Colorado but "we have to regulate cigars"

Amos Umwhat

phobicsquirrel:
Guess cigars will continue to be screwed with until they are illegal. Well good news is I probably have enough cigars to last me the rest of my life so any new changes can go f themselves. I do find this stuff too tiresome. Be nice if the govt spent this much effort on gas and oil companies or banks that tanked our economy........ But no, e cigarettes and cigars are a clear and present danger.

Too true, and let's not forget those insurance giants, the real power behind it all.

raisindot

phobicsquirrel:
Guess cigars will continue to be screwed with until they are illegal. Well good news is I probably have enough cigars to last me the rest of my life so any new changes can go f themselves. I do find this stuff too tiresome. Be nice if the govt spent this much effort on gas and oil companies or banks that tanked our economy........ But no, e cigarettes and cigars are a clear and present danger.

Totally agree with you on that. But tobacco companies are an easy target--they don't run the country the way the banks and insurance companies and oil companies do.

Back to the proposed legislation itself, I think the alarm for cigar smokers is overstarted. These regulations do seem aimed primarily at products aimed at minors, primarily flavored e-cigarettes. The cigar provisions are really aimed at non-premium flavored cigars, which are aimed at minors as well. The "product review" provisions seem to be aimed at controlling the rollout of these particular products, as opposed to premium cigars. My guess is that public comment and the tobacco lobby will find some way to convince the FDR that ACID cigars aren't quite targeted to minors the way, say, Swisher Sweets might me. The real problem will be in defining what a "premium cigar" is. The $10 retail minimum is a bit arbitrary--plenty of very good 'premium' cigars are available for under $10. And I think even the FDA will realize that it will be impossible for them to "review" any new brand Drew Estates throws into the market each week. My guess is that in the end we'll see tighter rules on flavored "drug store" and machine made cigars, but the "quality" cigars we smoke now won't be affected all that much.

In any case, these particular rules won't get into effect for two years; plenty of time to stock up your humidors.

brianetz1

Bob Luken:
I remember a while back someone was interviewing Rocky Patel and he was warning that if the FDA got these new regs passed, each time a new blend was introduced the feds would treat it as an entirely separate "new" product and the new blend would undergo a separate application and review for approval with the FDA. He made it sound like it would be an extensive scientific procedure to examine the unique properties and quantities of things like nicotine content for each blend. Similar to food labels.

this is exactly what most of the owners are saying. Now it could just be scare tactics, but without option 2 in the proposed regulations this could be a reality. There was an interview with one of the smaller guys who said instead of taking 9-12 months from start to finish on making a new cigar, it would be more like 2 years. They then talked about if the farms will keep the stock to roll the cigar while the FDA is making up their mind on if it is a valid brand or if the owners would have to buy the stock that they want to make the cigar they want and then sit on that investment for 2+ years while they are awaiting the FDA. Basically it would kill innovation in the market. The only companies that would have the capital sitting around to do that would be the big companies.

perkinke:
the fear over the ingredient issue is probably unfounded. Does Bayer have to have separate approval every time they slightly modify their aspirin? Not as long as they use ingredients known to be safe and I see no reason to suspect they'd do anything different. What this is really aimed at is flavored cigars, flavored tobacco for hookahs and e-cigs. I think the infused cigars may have greater oversight but once a brand shows the ingredients are nothing but naturally grown tobacco (I don't mean "organic" I mean not doused in chemicals as part of the process somewhere or lab grown) I think new lines wouldn't have any more scrutiny than they do now. Besides, it could be years before the FDA has the time to act on any of this, they are severely understaffed and have a hard time keeping up with lifesaving or lethal drugs let alone consumer items.

No but Phillip Morris does if they want to change the blend of their cigarettes. Each new cigar blend uses different ingredients. A cigar with a San Andres wrapper, a Jalapa binder, and dominican filler is totally different with totally different nicotine content, grown in different countries, and on totally different farms with different methods than a cigar with a Conny Broadleaf wrapper, a jalapa binder, and dominican filler.

The argument that the FDA wouldn't act on this is moot. Once the FDA enacts this proposal no company out there will just ignore FDA regulations and keep selling its non-fda regulated cigar in the US. Granted existing blends would have 2 years to get FDA approved, and during that time they would still be available but after that no company is going to "risk" getting fined.

brianetz1

Comments can now be posted for the topic online:

www.regulations.gov

jwalker37

Latest news, links to FDA rulemaking text (241 pages!), and map of taxes and regs by state here: Tobacco Legislation Action Center