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Question that's been bugging me for awhile

blurrblurr Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 962
This question has been bugging me for awhile. Some of the most raved about smokes lately have been cigars of NC tobacco made for European markets, like quesada espana and curivari to name a few. Now they are blended to compete with Cubans and are wowing us, so why are we not getting these blends? Why if NC tobacco can compete with CC tobacco that well is it not being mainly marketed to us? i just don't get why these European releases are blowing away what NC mfgrs are pushing on us in America. We are the ones with the embargo hello? Give us the tobacco that is (sorry it is annoying to me also but) cubanesque. This again goes to my fat ring gauge horse sh1t they are pushing on us. Why are theybasically saying smoke this garbage. Am I the only one fed up with NC horse sh1t and asking why to this obvious question?
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Comments

  • danielzreyesdanielzreyes Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 6,739
    Good Q. I'd like to know as well. I mean yeah, the whole embargo thing. It would only make sense to sell to the U.S. as well.
  • big chunksbig chunks Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 1,607
    I wondered the same thing, I mean if we have the technology lets use it, lol I wish I tried the quesada espania when I had the chance
  • blurrblurr Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 962
    This just bugs me. I whole heartedly support our market here in America but I'm buying more Cubans every day because of this and the 52+ RG crap. I just want to scream wake up every day to the NC makers.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 6,993
    Because the folks that keep the B&M's in biz wants the biggest, strongest, darkest cigar they can find in America. Only the educated smokers want what we want. Example...Oktoberfest in 6x65 is the best seller...and everyone else is changing to meet that type of demand. Go work a B&M for a weekend, you won't able to sell a real cigar to half the custy's that want the $18 dipped Gurkha or Makers Mark. It's mind blowing.... To each his own, we like the same stuff as the euro market.
  • blurrblurr Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 962
    catfishbluezz:
    Because the folks that keep the B&M's in biz wants the biggest, strongest, darkest cigar they can find in America. Only the educated smokers want what we want. Example...Oktoberfest in 6x65 is the best seller...and everyone else is changing to meet that type of demand. Go work a B&M for a weekend, you won't able to sell a real cigar to half the custy's that want the $18 dipped Gurkha or Makers Mark. It's mind blowing.... To each his own, we like the same stuff as the euro market.
    I guess I felt this deep down. And I do understand a large portion of people visiting a B&M are one time only smokers that want mandingo dark fat smoke. Yes I said mandingo, comedy included. But aren't they just a small portion of sales compared to people like us that stock 100s if not thousands of cigars? Aren't we the buyers supporting them in the long run? Maybe I'm just oblivious or maybe B&Ms have as much power as the travesty that went down with b&Ms blocking online Sales for a short period in whatever state that was north of me in Pa. Special interest groups are the answer I guess.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 6,993
    blurr:
    catfishbluezz:
    Because the folks that keep the B&M's in biz wants the biggest, strongest, darkest cigar they can find in America. Only the educated smokers want what we want. Example...Oktoberfest in 6x65 is the best seller...and everyone else is changing to meet that type of demand. Go work a B&M for a weekend, you won't able to sell a real cigar to half the custy's that want the $18 dipped Gurkha or Makers Mark. It's mind blowing.... To each his own, we like the same stuff as the euro market.
    I guess I felt this deep down. And I do understand a large portion of people visiting a B&M are one time only smokers that want mandingo dark fat smoke. Yes I said mandingo, comedy included. But aren't they just a small portion of sales compared to people like us that stock 100s if not thousands of cigars? Aren't we the buyers supporting them in the long run? Maybe I'm just oblivious or maybe B&Ms have as much power as the travesty that went down with b&Ms blocking online Sales for a short period in whatever state that was north of me in Pa. Special interest groups are the answer I guess.
    thats the thing...they aren't one time smokers bro. There is a huge following for large ring gauges, and virtually no market for corona and lancero in the US. Think about it....how many regulars do you meet at B&M's actually know cigars, let alone store owners.... Guys like us are the minority.
  • RainRain Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 8,761
    catfishbluezz:
    blurr:
    catfishbluezz:
    Because the folks that keep the B&M's in biz wants the biggest, strongest, darkest cigar they can find in America. Only the educated smokers want what we want. Example...Oktoberfest in 6x65 is the best seller...and everyone else is changing to meet that type of demand. Go work a B&M for a weekend, you won't able to sell a real cigar to half the custy's that want the $18 dipped Gurkha or Makers Mark. It's mind blowing.... To each his own, we like the same stuff as the euro market.
    I guess I felt this deep down. And I do understand a large portion of people visiting a B&M are one time only smokers that want mandingo dark fat smoke. Yes I said mandingo, comedy included. But aren't they just a small portion of sales compared to people like us that stock 100s if not thousands of cigars? Aren't we the buyers supporting them in the long run? Maybe I'm just oblivious or maybe B&Ms have as much power as the travesty that went down with b&Ms blocking online Sales for a short period in whatever state that was north of me in Pa. Special interest groups are the answer I guess.
    thats the thing...they aren't one time smokers bro. There is a huge following for large ring gauges, and virtually no market for corona and lancero in the US. Think about it....how many regulars do you meet at B&M's actually know cigars, let alone store owners.... Guys like us are the minority.
    Drool..you said corona. +1
  • Ken LightKen Light Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 3,524
    catfishbluezz:
    blurr:
    catfishbluezz:
    Because the folks that keep the B&M's in biz wants the biggest, strongest, darkest cigar they can find in America. Only the educated smokers want what we want. Example...Oktoberfest in 6x65 is the best seller...and everyone else is changing to meet that type of demand. Go work a B&M for a weekend, you won't able to sell a real cigar to half the custy's that want the $18 dipped Gurkha or Makers Mark. It's mind blowing.... To each his own, we like the same stuff as the euro market.
    I guess I felt this deep down. And I do understand a large portion of people visiting a B&M are one time only smokers that want mandingo dark fat smoke. Yes I said mandingo, comedy included. But aren't they just a small portion of sales compared to people like us that stock 100s if not thousands of cigars? Aren't we the buyers supporting them in the long run? Maybe I'm just oblivious or maybe B&Ms have as much power as the travesty that went down with b&Ms blocking online Sales for a short period in whatever state that was north of me in Pa. Special interest groups are the answer I guess.
    thats the thing...they aren't one time smokers bro. There is a huge following for large ring gauges, and virtually no market for corona and lancero in the US. Think about it....how many regulars do you meet at B&M's actually know cigars, let alone store owners.... Guys like us are the minority.
    +1, we're definitely the minority here. That's not to say these guys couldn't be swayed if they were forced to TRY the stuff we like. And I'm sure hipsters would come around if they realized how comfortable not-skinny jeans are. But I'm not holding my breath either.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 14,471
    Large rings and over the top power have been in style for the last few years. The us market can't get enough.
    whenever there is a post on facebook from a cigar company that asks about ring, about 99% of the people are putting out numbers that are 50+.
    its a battle between what the masses want and what the nerds like us know is good.

    as mentioned above, most people don't know much of what it takes to make a cigar, let alone blending theory, wrapper tofiller ratio, etc.
    most people only know what they like. People on cigar forums are the nerdiest of the cigar nerds.
  • Lee.mcglynnLee.mcglynn Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 5,228
    Gonna have to agree the American market is wacky in terms of rg's!! My b&m hardly carries coronas at all...in fact most of them are the davidoff's. it's hard not to find a market of double robustos and toros. Personally I am a corona guy but I guess the majority of the American population thinks bigger is better. What can you do
  • SleevePlzSleevePlz Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 5,408
    I stopped in at a local B&M the other day and noticed they have the new Asylum 13 cigars in stock complete with the 7x70 size. I just shook my head, dumbfounded that there were several already sold from that box. Thankfully, they also had the new Room 101 Daruma lancero in stock. You will never guess which one I bought. The reality is that people want the large cigars. Hopefully, the B&M owners will continue to also stock the smaller rg's to continue to appease people like us. I won't be upset until the cigar makers stop making the cigars I want.
  • VulchorVulchor Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 4,176
    Am I the only one who noticed the Mandingo reference?!?!?!? LOOOOVVVEEEE IT.
  • bigharpoonbigharpoon Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 2,909
    Between all the previous posts I don't think there is much to add, except this bugs me too! I was in a B&M and this guy (who was nice and all) was talking about the Nub he was smoking. His comments went on to include 'and it's a 60 so you know it's good', lol.

    I don't blame the companies for giving America what sells, they're in business to make money just like all of us. I do wish some of the other market's cigars were easier to come by. In general, I'm not loving what is easily available to us. Probably 75% of my most recent purchases have been non-US market, it is just superior in my opinion.
  • Gray4linesGray4lines Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 3,439
    Damn, I didn't know I was so lucky to have a b&m where the guys that work there like small rg's. There's always a good selection of sizes and I never feel pushed into a huge cigar
  • DiamondogDiamondog Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 4,169
    That being said, HSA is moving towards a lot of larger rings eg/ Monte 520 in a 55 ring as well as others, many don't like the big rings but I do, not exclusively though and HSA is discontinuing so many staples and has over the years....The Cuban cigar industry for many that are loyal devotees has been vandalized...not so much for me, I don't smoke anything but these days, for me there is simply no comparrison in the products...I knew it was time to put down NC's when I was smoking Opus X's and Padrons and saying "meh, it's ok but it ain't a havana"...

    Want an NC with a big ring, try the EPC Inch on for size, starts at a 60 and goes to a 64 ring ~below


    image
    Then again no surprise in EPC going big...
  • blurrblurr Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 962
    Diamondog:
    That being said, HSA is moving towards a lot of larger rings eg/ Monte 520 in a 55 ring as well as others, many don't like the big rings but I do, not exclusively though and HSA is discontinuing so many staples and has over the years....The Cuban cigar industry for many that are loyal devotees has been vandalized...not so much for me, I don't smoke anything but these days, for me there is simply no comparrison in the products...I knew it was time to put down NC's when I was smoking Opus X's and Padrons and saying "meh, it's ok but it ain't a havana"...

    Want an NC with a big ring, try the EPC Inch on for size, starts at a 60 and goes to a 64 ring ~below


    image
    Then again no surprise in EPC going big...

    Its funny you mention that diamond. I was perusing new brands lists on here and sis and that's the cigar that set me over the edge and why I posted this. I like epc's for the most part but I saw the Inch and lost it completely. I don't visit many B&Ms, my purchases are online and mostly now from overseas but I try to have faith in the markets. But I'm shocked to find out there are regulars in tobacco stores that buy this garbage up. In all honesty I think we are getting a SLIGHT foothold on this with many brands releasing more corona gordas (which I love) and lonsdales and lancy's. But just as many of those brands are releasing double toros and 60+ crap. Meh I guess my hope was the ccom crew would read this and start to make some push on the mfgrs to end this nonsense. I see the business side but if you focus on what tastes best and educate smokers this would go away. Sad to see so many people in the great old US of A are so superficial that "arrr bigger is better!" That's my rant so thanks for reaffirming I'm not the only one losing sleep over this frustration.
  • Amos UmwhatAmos Umwhat Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 2,523
    This has been an interesting read. I've always just assumed that the market was satisfying the consumers demands, and that people must be really into the big ring gauges and power-house cigars. Myself, I prefer 47 - 50 gauge, 5.5 to 6.5 in. length, and different wrappers/strengths for different occasions. I'd never given much thought to the notion that the companies wouldn't provide a little of everything to all markets and then see how it shakes out.
  • DiamondogDiamondog Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 4,169
    I will say in the NC market marques from most vendors include most sizes you can get what you want in long in skinny or big and stout, there is a lot more choice in the NC market which I don't think can be a bad thing. For me it is almost a non factor in Cubans although there are some marques I'd like to see more variety...
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 14,471
    Diamondog:
    although there are some marques I'd like to see more variety...
    holy crap i agree
    ERdM comes to mind.
    i mean only two sizes? for real?
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 6,993
    kuzi16:
    Diamondog:
    although there are some marques I'd like to see more variety...
    holy crap i agree
    ERdM comes to mind.
    i mean only two sizes? for real?
    Or Diplo....only one... I love their smokes with age, they open up magically.
  • jgibvjgibv Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 5,996
    Ken Light:
    +1, we're definitely the minority here. That's not to say these guys couldn't be swayed if they were forced to TRY the stuff we like. And I'm sure hipsters would come around if they realized how comfortable not-skinny jeans are. But I'm not holding my breath either.
    Maybe we could get hipsters to like smaller RGs --- easier to fit a "skinny" cigar in their "skinny" jeans. LMAO
    SleevePlz:
    I stopped in at a local B&M the other day and noticed they have the new Asylum 13 cigars in stock complete with the 7x70 size. I just shook my head, dumbfounded that there were several already sold from that box. Thankfully, they also had the new Room 101 Daruma lancero in stock. You will never guess which one I bought.
    Did you get the Asylum ??? ;-D
    Saw that one at my B&M a couple months ago too, had the same reaction ... why, just why?
    kuzi16:
    Large rings and over the top power have been in style for the last few years. The us market can't get enough.
    whenever there is a post on facebook from a cigar company that asks about ring, about 99% of the people are putting out numbers that are 50+.
    Kuzi hit the nail on the head. These are crazy times we're living in....
  • Ken LightKen Light Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 3,524
    blurr:
    if you focus on what tastes best and educate smokers this would go away

    I think this is a little off. Smaller RG's require some learning and attention to smoke. They need to be smoked more slowly or they'll get hot and bitter, so they actually don't necessarily taste better to someone just starting out. I hated my first lancero, but I love the size now that I know how to smoke it.

    Larger RG's can be puffed away at mercilessly and take the beating and thus are often better for a beginner or someone doing something that might distract them from their smoking pace. The amount of flavor they're getting is probably plenty for their palette because they're only going to pick up the big dominant ones anyway (whether distracted or beginner, same probably applies).

    So I don't think if you hand someone who's used to a 60 RG a lancero they're going to start puffing and have a huge revelation and never go back. In fact, he or she might HATE it. And that's why we like what we do and they like what they do. And since they've got the numbers, their tastes are in supply.

    It's the same in Poker. Walk into any poker room and you'll see TONS of no-limit hold 'em (NLHE) tables. NLHE is a kid's game next to the more exciting, action-oriented, and technically nuanced Pot Limit Omaha (PLO). But PLO tables are few and far between. Further, since all the bad players tend to play NLHE, all the good players who want to make money (roughly translate these guys to your B&M owners) play NLHE too.
  • JDHJDH Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 2,107
    Ken Light:
    blurr:
    if you focus on what tastes best and educate smokers this would go away

    I think this is a little off. Smaller RG's require some learning and attention to smoke. They need to be smoked more slowly or they'll get hot and bitter, so they actually don't necessarily taste better to someone just starting out. I hated my first lancero, but I love the size now that I know how to smoke it.

    Larger RG's can be puffed away at mercilessly and take the beating and thus are often better for a beginner or someone doing something that might distract them from their smoking pace. The amount of flavor they're getting is probably plenty for their palette because they're only going to pick up the big dominant ones anyway (whether distracted or beginner, same probably applies).

    So I don't think if you hand someone who's used to a 60 RG a lancero they're going to start puffing and have a huge revelation and never go back. In fact, he or she might HATE it. And that's why we like what we do and they like what they do. And since they've got the numbers, their tastes are in supply.

    It's the same in Poker. Walk into any poker room and you'll see TONS of no-limit hold 'em (NLHE) tables. NLHE is a kid's game next to the more exciting, action-oriented, and technically nuanced Pot Limit Omaha (PLO). But PLO tables are few and far between. Further, since all the bad players tend to play NLHE, all the good players who want to make money (roughly translate these guys to your B&M owners) play NLHE too.


    Good analagy, especially the poker players, and right on the money.

    We ought to face it; the American cigar market is dominated by big ring powerhouse cigars with a ton of ligero, and the European market, which already has a Cuban influence is definately not. In fact, the presence of Cuban cigars is driving the European preferences, and since we do not have those influences from Cuba, we have developed a differnet standard for the majority of the cigar market here.

    My question is this: What possible useful purpose is the American embargo of Cuban goods and services providing? It would seem to me that now, after the nearly total collapse of Communism across the globe, the embargo is only prolonging Communism in Cuba. The logic of removing the embargo and then negotiating for our businessses to bring prosperity back to Cuba should be a no-brainer. Besides, if we can do business with Communist China and Vietnam, why not do business with Cuba? I just don't get it.

  • rzamanrzaman Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 2,604
    Though the market trend goes against our like but it will not eliminate petite corona or lancero sizes. Still there is a big market. I am a huge Cuban cigar fan but will not exclusively smoke CC all the time. I do prefer CC (75%) over NC(25%) but at the same time will always smoke Padron 1926 80th, 40th, Family Reserve 45th, Zino Davidoff Crown series, Emperor Edition, Zino Davidoff Z 10 Anniversary NY collection, La Palina 1896, Little Bill, Partagas 150, Don Carlos Edicion de Anniversario, some LFD, Veaje Oro Reserva no. 5 2010 release and few others. Yes I can live without a Opus X but again it is a good smoke but also overpriced at the same time. Those few cigars are not Cuban but very very good smoke. In reality big ring gauge doesn't bother me because I buy very selective NC.
  • RhamlinRhamlin Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 4,530
    I really love some of the big ring gages. But mainly I stick to 50-54 rings. And I do enjoy me some coronas when I don't want to spend 2 hours ona smoke.But yeah it would be cool if we could get some of those sticks. Never understood it either. But if most of the US consumers are demanding fat fuller strength gars then that's what they are going to market I reckon.
  • RhamlinRhamlin Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 4,530
    JDH:
    Ken Light:
    blurr:
    if you focus on what tastes best and educate smokers this would go away

    I think this is a little off. Smaller RG's require some learning and attention to smoke. They need to be smoked more slowly or they'll get hot and bitter, so they actually don't necessarily taste better to someone just starting out. I hated my first lancero, but I love the size now that I know how to smoke it.

    Larger RG's can be puffed away at mercilessly and take the beating and thus are often better for a beginner or someone doing something that might distract them from their smoking pace. The amount of flavor they're getting is probably plenty for their palette because they're only going to pick up the big dominant ones anyway (whether distracted or beginner, same probably applies).

    So I don't think if you hand someone who's used to a 60 RG a lancero they're going to start puffing and have a huge revelation and never go back. In fact, he or she might HATE it. And that's why we like what we do and they like what they do. And since they've got the numbers, their tastes are in supply.

    It's the same in Poker. Walk into any poker room and you'll see TONS of no-limit hold 'em (NLHE) tables. NLHE is a kid's game next to the more exciting, action-oriented, and technically nuanced Pot Limit Omaha (PLO). But PLO tables are few and far between. Further, since all the bad players tend to play NLHE, all the good players who want to make money (roughly translate these guys to your B&M owners) play NLHE too.


    Good analagy, especially the poker players, and right on the money.

    We ought to face it; the American cigar market is dominated by big ring powerhouse cigars with a ton of ligero, and the European market, which already has a Cuban influence is definately not. In fact, the presence of Cuban cigars is driving the European preferences, and since we do not have those influences from Cuba, we have developed a differnet standard for the majority of the cigar market here.

    My question is this: What possible useful purpose is the American embargo of Cuban goods and services providing? It would seem to me that now, after the nearly total collapse of Communism across the globe, the embargo is only prolonging Communism in Cuba. The logic of removing the embargo and then negotiating for our businessses to bring prosperity back to Cuba should be a no-brainer. Besides, if we can do business with Communist China and Vietnam, why not do business with Cuba? I just don't get it.

    I believe the only reason we still have an embargo is because Kennedy put it in place and no one will touch it.
  • webmostwebmost Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 3,131
    Rhamlin:
    JDH:
    Ken Light:
    blurr:
    if you focus on what tastes best and educate smokers this would go away

    I think this is a little off. Smaller RG's require some learning and attention to smoke. They need to be smoked more slowly or they'll get hot and bitter, so they actually don't necessarily taste better to someone just starting out. I hated my first lancero, but I love the size now that I know how to smoke it.

    Larger RG's can be puffed away at mercilessly and take the beating and thus are often better for a beginner or someone doing something that might distract them from their smoking pace. The amount of flavor they're getting is probably plenty for their palette because they're only going to pick up the big dominant ones anyway (whether distracted or beginner, same probably applies).

    So I don't think if you hand someone who's used to a 60 RG a lancero they're going to start puffing and have a huge revelation and never go back. In fact, he or she might HATE it. And that's why we like what we do and they like what they do. And since they've got the numbers, their tastes are in supply.

    It's the same in Poker. Walk into any poker room and you'll see TONS of no-limit hold 'em (NLHE) tables. NLHE is a kid's game next to the more exciting, action-oriented, and technically nuanced Pot Limit Omaha (PLO). But PLO tables are few and far between. Further, since all the bad players tend to play NLHE, all the good players who want to make money (roughly translate these guys to your B&M owners) play NLHE too.


    Good analagy, especially the poker players, and right on the money.

    We ought to face it; the American cigar market is dominated by big ring powerhouse cigars with a ton of ligero, and the European market, which already has a Cuban influence is definately not. In fact, the presence of Cuban cigars is driving the European preferences, and since we do not have those influences from Cuba, we have developed a differnet standard for the majority of the cigar market here.

    My question is this: What possible useful purpose is the American embargo of Cuban goods and services providing? It would seem to me that now, after the nearly total collapse of Communism across the globe, the embargo is only prolonging Communism in Cuba. The logic of removing the embargo and then negotiating for our businessses to bring prosperity back to Cuba should be a no-brainer. Besides, if we can do business with Communist China and Vietnam, why not do business with Cuba? I just don't get it.

    I believe the only reason we still have an embargo is because Kennedy put it in place and no one will touch it.
    Camelot sanctifies embargo? There's a new theory. As good as any other.

  • JDHJDH Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 2,107
    webmost:
    Rhamlin:
    JDH:
    Ken Light:
    blurr:
    if you focus on what tastes best and educate smokers this would go away

    I think this is a little off. Smaller RG's require some learning and attention to smoke. They need to be smoked more slowly or they'll get hot and bitter, so they actually don't necessarily taste better to someone just starting out. I hated my first lancero, but I love the size now that I know how to smoke it.

    Larger RG's can be puffed away at mercilessly and take the beating and thus are often better for a beginner or someone doing something that might distract them from their smoking pace. The amount of flavor they're getting is probably plenty for their palette because they're only going to pick up the big dominant ones anyway (whether distracted or beginner, same probably applies).

    So I don't think if you hand someone who's used to a 60 RG a lancero they're going to start puffing and have a huge revelation and never go back. In fact, he or she might HATE it. And that's why we like what we do and they like what they do. And since they've got the numbers, their tastes are in supply.

    It's the same in Poker. Walk into any poker room and you'll see TONS of no-limit hold 'em (NLHE) tables. NLHE is a kid's game next to the more exciting, action-oriented, and technically nuanced Pot Limit Omaha (PLO). But PLO tables are few and far between. Further, since all the bad players tend to play NLHE, all the good players who want to make money (roughly translate these guys to your B&M owners) play NLHE too.


    Good analagy, especially the poker players, and right on the money.

    We ought to face it; the American cigar market is dominated by big ring powerhouse cigars with a ton of ligero, and the European market, which already has a Cuban influence is definately not. In fact, the presence of Cuban cigars is driving the European preferences, and since we do not have those influences from Cuba, we have developed a differnet standard for the majority of the cigar market here.

    My question is this: What possible useful purpose is the American embargo of Cuban goods and services providing? It would seem to me that now, after the nearly total collapse of Communism across the globe, the embargo is only prolonging Communism in Cuba. The logic of removing the embargo and then negotiating for our businessses to bring prosperity back to Cuba should be a no-brainer. Besides, if we can do business with Communist China and Vietnam, why not do business with Cuba? I just don't get it.

    I believe the only reason we still have an embargo is because Kennedy put it in place and no one will touch it.
    Camelot sanctifies embargo? There's a new theory. As good as any other.

    I don't think so. There has been far more support for the embargo from conservative, "anti-communist" voices than any other, but it just doesn't make any sense now that we do business with Communist states. I'm affraid we are just going to have to wait until Fidel dies.
  • VulchorVulchor Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 4,176
  • Amos UmwhatAmos Umwhat Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 2,523
    Vulchor:
    MANDINGO!!!
    no one wants to touch the mandingo, do they?
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