Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
OK, I finally see. You do need government assistance.
i understand that while discussing topics that are complex with opposing views can get frustrating at times but i cant sit here and be ok with this comment. i mean, i know you meant it as a joke but in conversations about personal beliefs even a small joke can be blown way out of proportion.
Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
the concept that i believe is being discussed here is not the migration aspect. it is the concept of not having infrastructure yet still being able to have some level of success. i addressed it earlier in this exchange:
JDH:
"...infrastructure does not make a business or a country. ..." Go to some country without it and see how "successful" you are.
kuzi16:
about as successful as the people that couldnt keep a business open in the USSR even though there was PLENTY of infrastructure.
it was there. yet there was little to no success. CLEARLY that is not what makes a business. there is both success and failure in places where there is infrastructure and without. the argument that you cannot succeed where there is no infrastructure is not true.
Government has promoted the general welfare by building huge dams, which created cheap energy, that helped to create unprescedented commerce, or by building a great interstate highway system, which led to unprescedented interstate commerce, and by creating infrastructure for the airline industry, which has also led to unprescedented commerce, and by placing the internet in the public arena instead of being used exclusively by the military, which has led to unprescedented commerce. All of these actions by the government to create infrastructure has promoted commerce, and therefore promoted the general welfare, and made the accumulations of private wealth possible because we live in a capitalist economy, not a state -run economy, like the Soviet Uniion.
Additionally, one must also consider the GW Bush approach to government, AKA "crony capitalism", whereby the government, and taxpayer dollars were seen as a cash cow to be plundered by favored corporations of his administration. If you believe there is no such thing as corporate welfare....
Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
OK, I finally see. You do need government assistance.
I think the main thing that frustrates people with the 'you didn't build it' line is where the risk lies. If a small business fails... the infrastructure doesn't go away, the teachers don't lose their jobs, your employees still got paid for the work they did, and, most importantly, the loans, whether government or private, still come due. I understand the intent of the statement, that every success builds on the backs of previous successes. Of course it does, that is how progress works. But, to infer that a person who takes most of the risk, formulates the idea, and experiences success didn't build that success for themselves is downright cold.
I see what youre saying as well JThan. I will counter by saying often teachers do lost their jobs (we all hate govt/state workers after all----I say in jest "we all"), employees often have to sue for wages they are owed by companies, and loans are (at times) declared in bankruptcy or simply not paid. So if its built on their own, then so should owning the failures----which is not often the case.
I see what youre saying as well JThan. I will counter by saying often teachers do lost their jobs (we all hate govt/state workers after all----I say in jest "we all"), employees often have to sue for wages they are owed by companies, and loans are (at times) declared in bankruptcy or simply not paid. So if its built on their own, then so should owning the failures----which is not often the case.
Indeed, there are bad apples in every cart. Yes, teachers do lose jobs...everyone in every sector loses jobs at some point, but I would say that it is rarely due to a small business failing that teachers are laid off. I guess we will have to disagree on how often failures are not owned up to... and despite how some have abused the system, most of the time bankruptcy is as painful if not more so than long term debt. At the end of the day, we all pay taxes to gain certain benefits and opportunities from them. If everyone has almost the same government benefits something has to be causing some to be more successful, in some cases repeatedly. And I think it is unfair to downplay these successes as not their own.
On a side not, why "you all" gotta hate me...makes me sad.
Dont know who hates you bro---I love everyone. And I TRULY do not consider in downplaying success or calling it not "someone's own", I am just saying there are other people and factors who deserve credit in the process as well...not that the owner himself/herself doesnt deserve the majority of the praise. It doesnt downplay someone's success, it may even show a greater level of personal success or "zen" to realize they didnt get there alone.
without seeming any stupider (if that's possible)...I'll ask - at what???
Feel free to PM me so we don't thread jack any further if you'd like.
I got the sarcasm from your post (at least I think that's what you were going for). And I recently read Bury My Heart - I'd over looked it before but since you mentioned looking up history books on the pioneers, I wanted to interject that this is worth reading as well, since it offers a more in-depth examination of the relationship between the Natives and the "settlers" and a different perspective that is often left out of other books.
EDIT - After reading Kuzi's post & to elaborate on mine - I realize we're not discussing the "history of the pioneers/westward expansion/etc." but rather infrastructure .... so I see why most post seemed out of line since it wasn't directly related to the topic at hand.
My fault, sorry for any confusion. But FWIW - it's still a good book if you're going to read up on that time period.
I'm amazed that both you and Vulchor independently take my metaphor about the pioneer story of hard work and turn it into a platform to criticize the white man on his treatment of the American Indian. I mean, is there a manual or something you confer with? Website?
Dont know who hates you bro---I love everyone. And I TRULY do not consider in downplaying success or calling it not "someone's own", I am just saying there are other people and factors who deserve credit in the process as well...not that the owner himself/herself doesnt deserve the majority of the praise. It doesnt downplay someone's success, it may even show a greater level of personal success or "zen" to realize they didnt get there alone.
Sorry, was a joke... I am one of those lazy government employees. And yes, people should recognize how they got to where they are, but I am genuinely concerned by those that would use that line of reasoning to "get their slice" from those who dared to be successful in their place. Once again, extremism is the enemy, and both sides have valid points.
without seeming any stupider (if that's possible)...I'll ask - at what???
Feel free to PM me so we don't thread jack any further if you'd like.
I got the sarcasm from your post (at least I think that's what you were going for). And I recently read Bury My Heart - I'd over looked it before but since you mentioned looking up history books on the pioneers, I wanted to interject that this is worth reading as well, since it offers a more in-depth examination of the relationship between the Natives and the "settlers" and a different perspective that is often left out of other books.
EDIT - After reading Kuzi's post & to elaborate on mine - I realize we're not discussing the "history of the pioneers/westward expansion/etc." but rather infrastructure .... so I see why most post seemed out of line since it wasn't directly related to the topic at hand.
My fault, sorry for any confusion. But FWIW - it's still a good book if you're going to read up on that time period.
I'm amazed that both you and Vulchor independently take my metaphor about the pioneer story of hard work and turn it into a platform to criticize the white man on his treatment of the American Indian. I mean, is there a manual or something you confer with? Website?
Actually, to clarlify for you Beat...or maybe put it in simpler terms...I was asking if you are likening your struggles to that of the Native Americans, simple as that. I know what the mistreeatment was, and I wasnt criticising or promoting it, I was simply asking if you felt your road was as tough as theirs------That sure seemed what you were trying to articulate, I just wanted to be sure.
without seeming any stupider (if that's possible)...I'll ask - at what???
Feel free to PM me so we don't thread jack any further if you'd like.
I got the sarcasm from your post (at least I think that's what you were going for). And I recently read Bury My Heart - I'd over looked it before but since you mentioned looking up history books on the pioneers, I wanted to interject that this is worth reading as well, since it offers a more in-depth examination of the relationship between the Natives and the "settlers" and a different perspective that is often left out of other books.
EDIT - After reading Kuzi's post & to elaborate on mine - I realize we're not discussing the "history of the pioneers/westward expansion/etc." but rather infrastructure .... so I see why most post seemed out of line since it wasn't directly related to the topic at hand.
My fault, sorry for any confusion. But FWIW - it's still a good book if you're going to read up on that time period.
I'm amazed that both you and Vulchor independently take my metaphor about the pioneer story of hard work and turn it into a platform to criticize the white man on his treatment of the American Indian. I mean, is there a manual or something you confer with? Website?
Beat, I wasn't trying to compare the "the pioneer story of hard work" to the "treatment of the American Indian" - so in that regard my post was out of context and off topic.
I was simply trying to suggest that if you (or anyone else) wants to read up on the history of that time period - Bury My Heart is a good read and offers a unique perspective on that era that many other books over look. This isn't the right thread to debate/discus the treatment of the American Indians and that's not what I was trying to get it.....so, my bad.
Also, I wasn't trying to over look the fact that the pioneers (and others who came before us) have put in a lot of hard work, "their blood, sweat and tears", if you will - to make the USA what it is today.
They did not have it easy in those days, there were no roads, schools, hospitals, etc. for the early pioneers and they often lived very tough lives, trying to travel through "the wilderness."
And I applaud you, Kuzi and all other small-business owners (like my dad) who have worked hard and taken risks to turn your ideas into successful businesses. My hat's off to you all.
Why are the Libs always so hateful?? It is beyond me, Obama was clearly wrong and it was a stupid thing to say but he meant to say it, he was playing to his audience. The O Campaign misspelled Ohio today, yeah a simple 4 letter state (you know one of the 57) I really don't give a care. Biden says something completely goofy every week, nobody cares because he is irrelevant, but when it all comes to ballot time remember this former Dem line "It's the economy, STUPID!"
Youll have to explain the hate to me here Gypsy. The only hate I could even infer is come from you calling the presides stupid, talkig about a spelling error, calling the vice president a goof and irrelevant. Im not saying those are hateful, but its the only thing here I can see that comes close to it. Also, I dont see how you addressed or contributed anything to the post we were talking about...just a deflection and snide comments about someone else.
Why are the Libs always so hateful?? It is beyond me, Obama was clearly wrong and it was a stupid thing to say but he meant to say it, he was playing to his audience. The O Campaign misspelled Ohio today, yeah a simple 4 letter state (you know one of the 57) I really don't give a care. Biden says something completely goofy every week, nobody cares because he is irrelevant, but when it all comes to ballot time remember this former Dem line "It's the economy, STUPID!"
I believe this is what Obama was talking about:
Government has promoted the general welfare by building huge dams, which created cheap energy, that helped to create unprescedented commerce, or by building a great interstate highway system, which led to unprescedented interstate commerce, and by creating infrastructure for the airline industry, which has also led to unprescedented commerce, and by placing the internet in the public arena instead of being used exclusively by the military, which has led to unprescedented commerce. All of these actions by the government to create infrastructure has promoted commerce, and therefore promoted the general welfare, and made the accumulations of private wealth possible because we live in a capitalist economy, not a state -run economy, like the Soviet Uniion. Additionally, one must also consider the GW Bush approach to government, AKA "crony capitalism", whereby the government, and taxpayer dollars were seen as a cash cow to be plundered by favored corporations of his administration. If you believe there is no such thing as corporate welfare....
So what you are saying is that Crony Capitalism is not alive and well under this administration? Really, you want to go there? I expect at least some intellectual honesty!
So what you are saying is that Crony Capitalism is not alive and well under this administration? Really, you want to go there? I expect at least some intellectual honesty!
Expect whatever you want, but I don't have time for people who can't be civil. I don't come here to insult people personally, or to question their integrity or their honesty because they might not agree with me. I expect the same. If you can't do that, take your conversations to somebody besides me, please.
Comments
On a side not, why "you all" gotta hate me...makes me sad.
I was simply trying to suggest that if you (or anyone else) wants to read up on the history of that time period - Bury My Heart is a good read and offers a unique perspective on that era that many other books over look. This isn't the right thread to debate/discus the treatment of the American Indians and that's not what I was trying to get it.....so, my bad.
Also, I wasn't trying to over look the fact that the pioneers (and others who came before us) have put in a lot of hard work, "their blood, sweat and tears", if you will - to make the USA what it is today.
They did not have it easy in those days, there were no roads, schools, hospitals, etc. for the early pioneers and they often lived very tough lives, trying to travel through "the wilderness."
And I applaud you, Kuzi and all other small-business owners (like my dad) who have worked hard and taken risks to turn your ideas into successful businesses. My hat's off to you all.
Government has promoted the general welfare by building huge dams, which created cheap energy, that helped to create unprescedented commerce, or by building a great interstate highway system, which led to unprescedented interstate commerce, and by creating infrastructure for the airline industry, which has also led to unprescedented commerce, and by placing the internet in the public arena instead of being used exclusively by the military, which has led to unprescedented commerce. All of these actions by the government to create infrastructure has promoted commerce, and therefore promoted the general welfare, and made the accumulations of private wealth possible because we live in a capitalist economy, not a state -run economy, like the Soviet Uniion. Additionally, one must also consider the GW Bush approach to government, AKA "crony capitalism", whereby the government, and taxpayer dollars were seen as a cash cow to be plundered by favored corporations of his administration. If you believe there is no such thing as corporate welfare....
I see nothing hateful in this observation.