Pit Bull Dogs
Theedge
Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 316
Our city has had two incidents in the last month where Pit Bulls have killed other dogs. One situation where the dog ran out the front door and got a dog walking by on a leash. And another at a dog park where somehow the dog got into the area for smaller dogs.
The argument that arises is that "it's the owner" not the dog. Some people agree with this, and some say it's the breed. I don't think either side will ever change the others mind. Regardless of who is right, how do we fix this problem?
The argument that arises is that "it's the owner" not the dog. Some people agree with this, and some say it's the breed. I don't think either side will ever change the others mind. Regardless of who is right, how do we fix this problem?
Comments
Fight 'em. That's what they're bred for. Let them get it out of their systems.
Pit bulls without good ownership and training are dangerous. Pit bulls with a good owner are some of the best dogs you will ever see. Great with kids and big loveable dogs.
Sadly this breed needs to go on a restricted list and every breeder be licensed to breed them. Every seller be licensed to sell them. Owners are required to register them. Make this process cost every owner $XXX dollars more. Have a system set up to check on the owners 6 months later to verify the dog is in a good home. If not pull the dog and get it to a home that is willing to work with it.
I love dogs and they need to be protected from dumb owners.
For example, I know a Chesapeake Bay Retriever that is very well trained, she was trained as a duck-hunting dog, and she listens and performs commands perfectly 95% of the time.
But that other 5%, is when she's around other dogs --- she goes ape$hit crazy and gets very aggressive towards other dogs, simply because she was never around other dogs & "socialized" when she was a puppy.
I've also met a number of families (with young children) who also have a pitbull. But these pitbulls are the most gentle, kind and some of the best-behaved dogs you'll ever encounter. These pitbulls are great with the young children and also great with other dogs....
So I think the "solution" is that all dogs (not just pitbulls IMO) need to be trained & socialized when they are puppies and that would fix a majority of the problems.
I think this sum's it up pretty well. From an article on ASPCA.org:
Should You Keep a Pit Bull Away from Other Dogs?
Pit bulls were genetically selected for their fighting ability. What does this mean? It doesn’t mean that they can’t be around other dogs, that they’re unpredictably aggressive or that they will always fight to the death. These are all common myths about pit bulls. It does mean that they may be easily encouraged to fight with other dogs.
The best way to prevent the development of aggressive behavior toward other dogs is to focus on early socialization. To learn how to interact, play and communicate with members of their own species, dogs of all breeds need to be well socialized during puppyhood. If a puppy has many good experiences with other dogs, any future unpleasant experiences will have less of an impact on him. Suppose a puppy is playing with another dog and the play escalates into a fight. This is relatively normal, and most well-socialized puppies will still want to play with other dogs afterward. If, on the other hand, the puppy has had very few experiences with other dogs, a spat may make a bigger impression on him. He may decide that he doesn’t like other dogs, and that feeling may contribute to fearful or aggressive responses to them when he matures.
Pit bull puppies may need even more socialization than other breeds. Numerous positive social experiences can teach a pit bull puppy to enjoy the company of other dogs. Frequent social interaction may also help pit bull puppies modify their natural play style, which is often more rough-and-tumble than that of other breeds. However, because of pit bulls’ natural tendencies, a little squabble between friends can turn into a serious fight, even if a pit bull has been very well socialized. And, after experiencing a fight or two, a pit bull may become testy with unfamiliar dogs in general. Some pit bulls, like individuals of many breeds, only remain friendly with dogs they meet during puppyhood—which is another great reason to make sure your pit bull puppy makes plenty of friends.
yes, Yes, YES, YES
100% agree. Thank you.
Now that I have said that, I have to agree that pits and rottweilers need to be restricted. If these dogs are not properly trained and worked with, they get bored. When they get bored, they take aggressions out.
My son's dog spends a lot of time with us and is never out of our sight. I think the lab mix in him has made him pretty docile. He's even afraid of the cat. LOL!
There are too many people out there who do not know how to properly train a dog or take care of it and beating a dog is not the answer. That is how they get to the point where they attack things.
My son's dog is probably the most loyal, loveable dog I have seen in a while. He thinks he is a little lap dog.
Unfortunately, at 90 lbs, he isn't a very good lap dog. LOL!
Here is a couple pics. He thinks he is good at sitting up and doing tricks. I think he's a bit clumsy, but we give him treats for it anyway. LOL!
Realistically, we all know what they were bred for. Yes, you can get milk from an Angus; but a Holstein has the udder. You can train a quarter horse to plow; but a Percheron will have more heft. You can train a pit bull to pull a sled; but a malemute has the coat. We know this. That's why they were bred. Well, temperaments were bred just as much as udders, heft, and coats. Arguing from the exception and saying I love dogs and hunting up videos showing a sweet pitty who plays with a baby kitten... that's just fuzzy headed nonsense. People have been breeding animals for specific purposes for millennia. It works. If it didn't work they wouldn't have done it. We know this. Why deny it?
And this we know also: Next time there's a dog gets its face chewed off or a child gets killed, chances are real good it's a pit bull or rotty owned, it's true, by a knucklehead, but what do knuckleheads buy?
Nevertheless, the question still remains: "Regardless of who is right, how do we fix this problem?"
Me, I'm not one for carving out constantly more and more and more and more gummint regulation and overhead for every knucklehead problem. It's expensive in a time we don't have the money to do much more important things, it's often ineffective, often stupid, always repressive. I say, if that's what they do best, and if MMA draws big crowds, then get over your squeamishness and fight them.
Me, I wouldn't have one. And I regard a person who does as advertising their hat on sideways pants falling down oafishness.
That is a pretty ignorant statement to make.
My son got this dog because he didn't want to see a little of puppies go to the pound, which is where they were headed, so he rescued it. The dog has turned out to be extremely disciplined and well mannered. He is always on a leash when outside.
Gotta love that closed mindedness of some people.
Perhaps the dogs can be "rehabilitated" at a place like the Villalobos Rescue Center (Pitbulls and Parolees on Animal Planet)....
Or, while I personally don't agree with it, perhaps the dogs need to be "fought MMA Style" as Webmost has suggested - to get out their aggression.
Or perhaps the "already aggressive" adult dogs can't be fixed ....
However, for young pitbull or their puppies .... this is how aggression can be fixed.
Directly from the ASPCA.org website:
The best way to prevent the development of aggressive behavior toward other dogs is to focus on early socialization. To learn how to interact, play and communicate with members of their own species, dogs of all breeds need to be well socialized during puppyhood.
Absolutely!
If the dogs are properly trained, worked with and given proper affection, they can turn out to be excellent dogs.
I think that the solution, the societal solution, is for people to realize and for communities to act on the fact that the ASPCA comments and those like them above are applicable to humans, as well. We need to raise our kids that same way!
Of course, that's not going to be easy, or universal no matter how hard we try, but sometimes the impossible is still worth striving for.
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I once had a friend in Berzerkeley who had just one leg. (Ironically, this guy had a job autoclaving rabid dog poop. That's right. SPCAs all over Kali delivered turds of suspected biting dogs to this one legged man to cook. Perfect job security, said he, because nobody wants my job. Neither here nor there, but dogs put me in mind of him.) We could easily enough find more than one one legged man. Though probably no two one legged dog poop cookers. We are still less likely to open a one legged pant factory. Why? Men have two legs.
Indeed, every field of learning begins with taxonomy. Physics has laws, chemistry elements, zoology classification, and so forth. We measure the rest of the world by making distinctions. Yet, and especially in human affairs, today's zeitgeist zealously instructs us to close our minds to all taxonomy, and instead search out exceptions. In dogs, breeds are the taxonomy. Breeds define body and temperament. That's what they are for. Why close your mind to that?
Look, Bearswatter and I live in suburbia with her Bichon named Sophie. If we lived on a ranch, this breed would be inappropriate. If we owned a wrecking yard we might need a rotty named Spike. If we lived in an apartment we'd be fools to own a rotty named Spike. All based on stereotypes. Unless you intend to fight a fighting dog, then you are paddling upstream owning one. That's simply not an appropriate breed. You may sweeten one with half a lab or defuse the other with constant attention. But you are paddling upstream. My one step daughter owns a whippet, lives alone in a duplex, and is never home. No wonder the dog takes off like a shot at every opportunity. The other step daughter owns a big nervous Vizsla, the hubby works on the road, she works long hours, the boys are in school, and then she wonders why she comes home to find the couch chewed up. Both dote on their dogs and would be offended if you suggested they chose the wrong breed. They did.
Dogs are a lovable anachronism at this point anyway. Here we have a sociable roaming pack animal which is never allowed to run with its kind. Imagine Gulliver stuck with Houhynyms his entire life. A devoted Houhynym may give him attention, but cannot give him human companionship. Even as recently as my childhood, our dogs made a daily circuit of the neighborhood together unleashed. My dog ran beside my bicycle, we both ran in the fields, when the pack came over he ran with them. Nowadays, no dog gets out without a rope round its neck. No wonder they get neurotic. Even Sophie needs her time each day sniffing in the yard. When her maltee-poo buddy comes over, they go ballistic. Sophie's one chance to talk to a critter in her own language. Yet she is bred to be a snugglebug lapdog. She is the most gentled breed you could think of. No. We no longer live in a dog's world.
No. Fighting dog owners I encounter truly are stereotypically oafs, evidenced by the dog choice they made. Including my stepson. I'll allow you to be the exception. Fine. That still doesn't make the breed a smart decision. We no longer live in a fighting dog's world.
And I'm betting you think all Natives run around in loin cloths scalping people? Kind of the same mentality.
Oh wait. Lest I forget, you must think guns kill people too. Right?
Sorry, but that is the silliness of this.
Oh by the way, a stereotype is created by the person saying it.
It's like saying all people who have tattoos are thugs who make little money. While that may be true for a very small percentage of them, it definitely is not the norm. Yet the mindset is still there and still inaccurate.
I'm done. Can't reason with that kind of logic.
But if a person who lived in an apartment wanted a rottweiler, it could be done ... as long as they trained the dog and could devote proper time to the dog for excercising.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter what breed they have if their "humans" live busy lives like that.
It sounds like the people have too much else going on and the dogs are not getting enough attention/exercise/socialization. I would not suggest that they have a different dog because I would guess that if they had a pug or even a Bichon like you, they would still be having these problems because the dog's need activity too! I would suggest that perhaps they should not have any dog at all, regardless of breed.
Again, from an article on ASPCA.org:
If a dog is well trained, there's no reason they can't go outside without a leash or fenced yard...
And while I agree that dogs are "sociable" and need to spend time with other dogs...To portray them as "roaming pack animals" makes them sound more like wolves, and:
1) "This study shows just how domesticated our pet dogs have become and how their orientation seems to have shifted more towards humans than to other dogs." (please check out the links in this article)
and 2) contradicts the idea you conveyed that pit bulls and other "dangerous dogs" have been bred to fight....which is it? Please clarify because maybe I'm misreading something but it seems that you are saying that dogs are "social" pack animals but they are also "lone wolf" fight-to-the-death type animals?
I'm sorry all your experiences with "fighting dog owners" have been negative. This has been the exact opposite for me --- I would argue that perhaps the "stereotype owners" you encounter vs. the "non-stereotypical" ones I encounter are rooted in other causes, like the demographics of where we live or some other external factor.... I don't know though, just thinking out loud...
And yes I completely agree, we no longer live in a fighting dog's world.
I know you stated earlier that you were not looking for a bunch of feel good tales of people who have wonderful pitties but please indulge me this one quick tale.
I have a friend who has two pure breed pitties. These dogs are both several years old so they are not puppies. Both of these dogs are awesome animals. Friendly and affectionate with both people and other animals.
As mentioned earlier dogs, when put into a situation with other dogs may try to determine who is the dominant or alpha dog. Why does this surprise anyone? Humans do exactly the same things when they enter a situation involving people of the same or opposite sex. It is part of the non-verbal communication which goes on constantly between people in that setting, animals in a similar setting and even people-animals in a combined setting.
In my opinion it definatley comes down to the owners of these types of breeds ( there are other fighting breeds) of dogs. I think that a person who wants to own this type of animal should be required to take a course of some kind so that they are fully aware of what is involved with owning the animal. There are NO fix alls for this or any other problem of society. You can NOT idiot, or stupid proof the world. The only way to do this would be to remove the rights of everyone, instead of allowing rights to everyone. In other words the idiots of the world will continue to get these dogs and ruin them for their own F'ked up reasons, and the only way to prevent that is to take away the right of everyone from owning these dogs. Not a viable solution.
The two dogs that I mention in this little story are also both rescue dogs! It is because of the owner that took these dogs that they are such wonderful animals and companions. These were dogs which were abused and basically abandoned and then rescued and sent to the center where my buddy found them. After some time and patience these dogs were rehabilitated (if that is the right terminaology) to become the animals they are now. So in my opinion after seeing these dogs regularly and never seeing an act of aggression from either of them in many different situations... I am firmly in the camp of it is the owners and NOT the animals who are aggressive, and it is these type of people (dog owners or not) who society needs protection from, not Pit bulls.
the OP asked "how do we fix" the problem... WHAT problem? Some dogs attack people... it happens. It's life. Get over it and stop trying to regulate everything in the world. Punish dog fighters, but leave everyone else, and their pitbulls alone! How would you like it if some bimbo in your state senate tried to come into your home and steal away your dog because of FALSE information, and media sensationalism? My guess you'd be pretty pissed.