Marker's comments on "The contents of my humidor pass" thread
The Sniper
Everyone, Registered Users Posts: 3,910
Gonna do this here so as not to derail dennisking's pass thread any more than it already has been. The original post...
Marker, you are so far out of line on this that it absolutely beyond belief. In starting this extremely unique pass, Dennis has put his ENTIRE COLLECTION of cigars at the pleasure of his fellow BOTL. Point blank, this is the single ballsiest thing I have seen anyone do in my time on the forums by a damned sight. Who the he11 are you or anyone else to insult that kind of generosity, regardless of the BOTL involved, the sticks involved, or anything else? ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE. If you're even capable of it, why don't you take a step back and think for a second hwo you made Dennis feel about this?
And all of it concerning something YOU AREN'T EVEN INVOLVED IN.
Here is where I start getting stones throw at me from various BOTL for being a jerk, if they haven't already started raining down on me yet.
Something like this could be chalked up to a fit of jealousy at not being selected as a member of the pass, and it would be understandable. Petty, but understandable. To a point. As stated by Laker in the following well thought out post...
Trust me, I am far from the only one on these forums who have seen these things and been offended by them. I never said anything about the previous things because I wasn't involved in them, so they really weren't any of my business ultimately.
I am involved in this one. So 'Im making it my business now.
Enough of this crap is enough.
Its been the norm on the forums for folks to just let things like this slide, because the members here want their time spent here to be a positive experience. Its a policy that works, because there usually AREN'T any issues to address. Sometimes people are having a bad day or can have other stuff in their life coloring their views. People on the forums here understand that, so they either just let it slide or address it with a PM to that person of the "Hey bro, is everything OK?" variety in the expectation that they will get whatever it is straightened out and press on in the general harmony of the place.
Applying what I just said, I don't know you. I have no idea what may or may not be going on in your world outside of the forums. Additionally, no man can know the thoughts or feelings of another. All you can go off is what they say and do.
So all that being said, things you have said or done in the past have pushed the line of what is acceptable around here on more than one occasion. In this instance, you have gone WAY over that line. You decided to publicly take a long tenured, well respected member of the forums who is in good standing and basically spit in his face by insulting his ideas and generosity, and that is COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. How dare you??? I mean seriously, what gives you the right to stand in judgement of anyone else for what they do?
If you had a problem and just COULDN'T keep it to yourself, you could have sent a pm and hashed it out privately. You chose instead to do it publicly. I probably should have done this privately too, but I chose not to for a reason. Like I mentioned above, I'm not NEARLY the first person who has noted your behavior previous to this incident. I'm sure a lot of people who did note it wondered if you had been spoken to about it privately, or maybe were just waiting for you to square yourself away. Now they will not have to wonder about it anymore or make allowances, because they will know you HAVE been told. Excuse of not knowing or not realizing revoked. From this point forward, anyone who sees this kind of disrespect for your fellow BOTL will know the reason is not CARING.
Here is my suggestion in case something like this happens in the future. If you're involved in somebody else's pass and don't like how its going, either bow out or simply take nothing and leave nothing when the pass gets to you. SILENTLY. Want a pass run a better way or want to judge the sticks involved, do your own pass and THEN you can make it the way YOU want it.
If you see something else on the forum you don't like, then simply don't get involved in it. If the perceived atrocity you see is so absolutely heinous that you just cant keep your opinion to yourself, take it up with that person privately instead of flaming them in public. If its an issue that you think could cause future harm to members of the forum (a la the JoeyJoe issue) and you cant hash it out with that person or they continue the behavior, THEN take it public. That's looking out for your fellow BOTL. Raining down insulting comments on something you have absolutely NOTHING to do with is not.
I may get flamed for this post, and if that happens so be it. But I'll tell you from the heart, Id rather get flamed or ostracized standing up for a solid BOTL like Dennis than get one more "Can you believe this? I cant believe somebody hasn't said something!"-type email. A lot of folks around here believe in live and let live as I do (believe it or not), but I also believe that no matter who you are, if you're a member of this forum, your forum is going to be what you make of it. If these forums are going to be the kind of community where a respected member is insulted and spat upon for his ideas or his generosity, or the kind where someone is taking to task for calling BS when it happens, I will be happy to bow out before I continue to be a part of it. Marker, you do a lot of good things around here and they are noted and appreciated. Ive given you my counsel and advice for what its worth. We'll see what you do with it going forward.
Quotes from Marker so far in that thread at the time of me writing this...dennisking:One day I was driving to work thinking to myself, what would be a cool pass/bomb/contest thing to do on the forums. Then I was saddened because I only have 20-25 sticks in my humidor because I don't get to smoke that much these days. There isn't a need for a big inventory if I don't smoke that often. I mean, I would love to have a ton of sticks but it's just not in the cars. That meant that if I sent out a big bomb or had a a big contest, I would be out of sticks and I usually don't get the checkbook to go buy new sticks on a whim or I would be living on my own, without my Wife.
That's when it came to me. A message from the Gods if you will. The BOTL Gods ordered me to give the ultimate sacrifice and donate all my sticks to a box pass. Not just a handful or my second rate sticks but all of them. I have chosen to comply.
Then came the question of WHO. Who to pass to. Who should be in this unique pass. I again consulted the BOTL Gods and they replied with a list of names. If your name isn't on this list, don't be dismayed. It wasn't in the will of the Gods.
The rules of the pass are simple. Log your takes and your puts on the list and take pics of you can. Send it out as fast as you can so that all the "chosen ones" may enjoy in the festivities. It's also a one for one pass with NO JUDGE on what trades are deemed acceptable and no limit to quantity. That means, if you want to trade 20 sticks for 20 others, so be it. The people on this list are more than qualified to use their discretion.
This pass is already closed, so please no inquiries and again, don't be offended if you weren't included. It's not anything personal, just the will of the Gods.
Marker:So why do you have to log your puts and takes on the list and take pictures? If you are more than qualified to use your discretion why do you need to log anything? The Gods are watching this pass. Pretty sure they can direct the participants with divine intervention if there is an issue.
Posting puts and takes says you are being judged. Either you trust them or you don't. Pretty simple.
Marker:So you are sending a bunch of $3-$12 cigars to some of the heaviest hitters on Ccom so they have the opportunity to share some of their best with you? I don't get it. What in that lineup do you expect all these people on the list to clamour after? You think that the people on the list are going to think 'Wow, I have been wanting to try that AB family blend and Gurk forever. Glad I got this box so I can ship it to someone else for $9. Wait, I can buy an AB family blend and that Gurk for $7.
Quotes from some pretty well respected members of the forums regarding Marker's quotes....Marker:Dennis. I know I am being petty about this but the overbown buildup and massive hype about the Gods really was too much. Have a nice pass with some good cigars. What you have are not bad cigars but for the list of people you have assembled why would you even include some of these cigars? Send the nice cigars that people would want but keep the regular production easy to get stuff for yourself. If you like them, smoke them.
I have a wife and 4 kids. Don't have a large cigar budget but I am still on here doing passes and trades. As you know from another place you read I am pretty active there as well. If you think my dealings with others were not worthy of your pass that is ok with me. Before your PMs went out I was not counting on being involved because we have never dealt with each other.
j0z3r:As far as I can tell Marker, you aren't even involved in this pass...so why do you feel it is your duty to come in here and criticize? If the cigars aren't up to par, that's a determination for the people in the pass to make.
Now then, for my own editorial...bandyt09:Marker, I don't know if you were aware of the fact that all involved with this pass got a PM letting us know that we had the opportunity to be involved in this pass. Dennis clearly started that we did not have to participate in his pass and no hard feelings would be had if we chose to decline. I for one, am honored to be chosen by such a stand up brother like Dennis. Maybe you need to get to know people on here before you open your mouth about them.
Dennis has been one of the most humble and generous person on the forum. He is emptying his humidor for a pass to his fellow brothers; I haven't seen anyone else on the forum ever do this in the years that I have been here and you have the audacity to criticize him and the cigars he has? Seriously, that is bush league, especially to someone in the brotherhood. You just made me feel embarrassed to be called a BOTL, because of what you just did to another brother, is any indication of what being a BOTL is all about, I don't want to be one.
Dennis, please do not let this person, who has NOTHING to do with the pass ruin the fun for you. I don't even care if you would have sent all DOG ROCKETS, which you didn't, I am very honored to be in this pass.
Jaime, is it harder to give from the excess one has or to give from only the little that one has? Brother a cigar is just a cigar, but a gift from Dennis' stock is something to be treasured, because it came from a friend. You can learn a lot from him.
Marker, you are so far out of line on this that it absolutely beyond belief. In starting this extremely unique pass, Dennis has put his ENTIRE COLLECTION of cigars at the pleasure of his fellow BOTL. Point blank, this is the single ballsiest thing I have seen anyone do in my time on the forums by a damned sight. Who the he11 are you or anyone else to insult that kind of generosity, regardless of the BOTL involved, the sticks involved, or anything else? ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE. If you're even capable of it, why don't you take a step back and think for a second hwo you made Dennis feel about this?
And all of it concerning something YOU AREN'T EVEN INVOLVED IN.
Here is where I start getting stones throw at me from various BOTL for being a jerk, if they haven't already started raining down on me yet.
Something like this could be chalked up to a fit of jealousy at not being selected as a member of the pass, and it would be understandable. Petty, but understandable. To a point. As stated by Laker in the following well thought out post...
However, this isn't the first time you've been out of line concerning passes brother. Calling out fellow BOTL in a childish manned for perceived inequities in takes and puts, "suggesting" to other BOTL how they should run and / or manage THEIR passes. Not yours. And to do it in the manner in which you have - spitting hellfire and brimstone and hatefulness instead of discussing something calmly and rationally. More examples of arrogance.laker1963:Oh MAN !!!. This is what I was afraid was going to happen eventually with these "by invatation only" passes. I have commented on this in the past. There is a real danger of the forum being broken into little groups instead of one big happy family situation that we have now.
Dennis I appreciate you inviting me into this pass and we have had dealings in the past so I know what an upstanding BOTL you are.
Marker, he and I have had some dealings in the more recent past and he too is a Top Notch BOTL. I think that if you are invited to a pass you feel special because you were selected from a rather large group of BOTL to participate. If you were not invited for whatever reason, suddenly you feel like you must have done something to offend the person who started the pass. Or maybe that person is judging your past passes with others and decides that you don't make the grade. While that may be the case, there are so many reasons for being overlooked, these are only a couple of possibilities, but, bottom line is... it stings when you are overlooked.
Dennis and Jamie are both standup BOTL and it pains me to see this sort of thing get started, as it can grow and hard feelings can be permanent.
While I have already accepted and will absolutley go forward in this pass, this will be the last pass I go into that is not just open to whoever is a member in good standing at the forums. I have never liked little cliques, or cartels. Being part of them is no less uncomfortable for me, just a room with a different view if you get my meaning.
Everyone should just take a breath and relax a little here. There is always a tendancy to be drawn to people who seem to have similar thoughts and beliefs. The forums were a fantastic place for people of various backgrounds, wealth, work experience, and even political beliefs to spend time together and share experiences with the one thing we all have in common... a love of a good cigar. When these little invitation only passes started I was afraid that some would feel left out ( I know I did when it happened to me) and that it would lead to hard feelings eventually. I hope I am wrong and I hope this isn't the first such instance of this happening.
So no more invitation only passes for me. I appreciate all who have invited me, and definatley mean no disrespect for BOTL who may have been considering inviting me into their pass. It is my personal belief that these will be destructive to the coherance of this group. This has all been JUST MY OPINION, I have intended to offend nobody with these comments. Just the way I see it.
Doug
Trust me, I am far from the only one on these forums who have seen these things and been offended by them. I never said anything about the previous things because I wasn't involved in them, so they really weren't any of my business ultimately.
I am involved in this one. So 'Im making it my business now.
Enough of this crap is enough.
Its been the norm on the forums for folks to just let things like this slide, because the members here want their time spent here to be a positive experience. Its a policy that works, because there usually AREN'T any issues to address. Sometimes people are having a bad day or can have other stuff in their life coloring their views. People on the forums here understand that, so they either just let it slide or address it with a PM to that person of the "Hey bro, is everything OK?" variety in the expectation that they will get whatever it is straightened out and press on in the general harmony of the place.
Applying what I just said, I don't know you. I have no idea what may or may not be going on in your world outside of the forums. Additionally, no man can know the thoughts or feelings of another. All you can go off is what they say and do.
So all that being said, things you have said or done in the past have pushed the line of what is acceptable around here on more than one occasion. In this instance, you have gone WAY over that line. You decided to publicly take a long tenured, well respected member of the forums who is in good standing and basically spit in his face by insulting his ideas and generosity, and that is COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. How dare you??? I mean seriously, what gives you the right to stand in judgement of anyone else for what they do?
If you had a problem and just COULDN'T keep it to yourself, you could have sent a pm and hashed it out privately. You chose instead to do it publicly. I probably should have done this privately too, but I chose not to for a reason. Like I mentioned above, I'm not NEARLY the first person who has noted your behavior previous to this incident. I'm sure a lot of people who did note it wondered if you had been spoken to about it privately, or maybe were just waiting for you to square yourself away. Now they will not have to wonder about it anymore or make allowances, because they will know you HAVE been told. Excuse of not knowing or not realizing revoked. From this point forward, anyone who sees this kind of disrespect for your fellow BOTL will know the reason is not CARING.
Here is my suggestion in case something like this happens in the future. If you're involved in somebody else's pass and don't like how its going, either bow out or simply take nothing and leave nothing when the pass gets to you. SILENTLY. Want a pass run a better way or want to judge the sticks involved, do your own pass and THEN you can make it the way YOU want it.
If you see something else on the forum you don't like, then simply don't get involved in it. If the perceived atrocity you see is so absolutely heinous that you just cant keep your opinion to yourself, take it up with that person privately instead of flaming them in public. If its an issue that you think could cause future harm to members of the forum (a la the JoeyJoe issue) and you cant hash it out with that person or they continue the behavior, THEN take it public. That's looking out for your fellow BOTL. Raining down insulting comments on something you have absolutely NOTHING to do with is not.
I may get flamed for this post, and if that happens so be it. But I'll tell you from the heart, Id rather get flamed or ostracized standing up for a solid BOTL like Dennis than get one more "Can you believe this? I cant believe somebody hasn't said something!"-type email. A lot of folks around here believe in live and let live as I do (believe it or not), but I also believe that no matter who you are, if you're a member of this forum, your forum is going to be what you make of it. If these forums are going to be the kind of community where a respected member is insulted and spat upon for his ideas or his generosity, or the kind where someone is taking to task for calling BS when it happens, I will be happy to bow out before I continue to be a part of it. Marker, you do a lot of good things around here and they are noted and appreciated. Ive given you my counsel and advice for what its worth. We'll see what you do with it going forward.
Comments
Thanks for sticking up for me in this Glen. I'm glad it's all behind me now but more glad I have such a great group of brothers.
Well put; I hope that your post will help some people, that may have lost the vision and why the forum is here. As Doug put it, we all share the same interst, cigars.To me cigars go way beyond the tobacco rolled into different shapes and sizes, it is the commradre and the relaxation involved in enjoying a cigar.
Guys, the forum is a break from the daily stress and BS that is going on in our lives, we don't need that stress and BS here. I haven't had a cigar since December 6th, 2011 and as it looks like it won't be until August AT THE EARLIEST, that I get to have another one. I cannot smoke so I come here to read about what you guys are smoking, what you guys got in, what you guys traded, the bombs that hit, that is the only cigar satisfaction I can have right now and for the near future. Try leaving cigars for an extended amount of time, maybe it'll bring back an appreciate of a dollar or two dollar cigar. Just because one has an extensive CC collection or Opus collection or Viaje collection doesn't make him or her any better than someone with an extensive Devil's Weed collection, they are, at the root still a cigar.
I love this hobby more than any cigar I own or will ever own. If you don't believe ask any one of the SoCal brothers that have been to my house if I have not opened up my humidor and told them to pick out anything they like. I have told them if we herf at my house, they don't have to bring cigars, I will provide the cigars.
Guys, they are just cigars, get over it and treat them as such. The people here and the friendships to be made are the special thing about this forum, let's not make it just another one of "Those Forums".
Rant over. Done with subject.
And I agree! Very well said, Glen.
Marker, you have added plenty of greatness here and for that I appreciate you. I'm not going to call you out like most of this thread has, I'll just encourage you that some of this could be constructive criticism. It's all about perception and I hope this does all of us some good. I'm a firm believer that certain actions don't make a person, it's how they recover and earn from their mistakes.
Dennis, thank you for letting us watch your pass and for emptying it's contents. I know from previous posts that you don't smoke that much and aren't attached to the fine sticks you have. To me, it's awesome that you are willing to do a pass and may not have even tried half of what you have. It's your pass brother, do what you want with it
Hey anyone who doesn't want to trade or pass with Dennis then don't pass or trade with him. So STFU and move on. I will gladly take your place every day of the week and two stogies on Sunday.
I would jump all over that trade but alas I am short of V's and only have two Ashton's.
I will leave the V to you DD since you "called it" LOL. How did you know??
I also agree that the lack of a daily hottie idol in a while is something to get upset about, and Im glad to see you got the wheels turning again on that.
Although you could have given A at least SOME competition in your comeback post... LOL