Arizona Law

Alex Williams

Are there any BOTLs out there who are against it? I am NOT starting a debate I am just curious as to why. I hear all these people protesting it but I can't figure out WHY. Thanks guys!!

laker1963

Alex Williams:

Are there any BOTLs out there who are against it? I am NOT starting a debate I am just curious as to why. I hear all these people protesting it but I can't figure out WHY. Thanks guys!!

I can certainly understand why they are doing it. Too bad someone couldn't find a better way to do it so it wasn't so offensive...but.

When I was in Mexico a few years back, all the locals kept talking to me in Spanish when first addressing me. They all thought I was Mexican, so maybe it would be a good idea for me to avoid Arizona? LMAO

I don't think I want to be deported "back" to Mexico... I don't trust the Canadian government to help get me out !

j0z3r

laker1963:

Alex Williams:

Are there any BOTLs out there who are against it? I am NOT starting a debate I am just curious as to why. I hear all these people protesting it but I can't figure out WHY. Thanks guys!!

I can certainly understand why they are doing it. Too bad someone couldn't find a better way to do it so it wasn't so offensive...but.

When I was in Mexico a few years back, all the locals kept talking to me in Spanish when first addressing me. They all thought I was Mexican, so maybe it would be a good idea for me to avoid Arizona? LMAO

I don't think I want to be deported "back" to Mexico... I don't trust the Canadian government to help get me out !

que?

Alex Williams

laker1963:

Alex Williams:

Are there any BOTLs out there who are against it? I am NOT starting a debate I am just curious as to why. I hear all these people protesting it but I can't figure out WHY. Thanks guys!!

I can certainly understand why they are doing it. Too bad someone couldn't find a better way to do it so it wasn't so offensive...but.

When I was in Mexico a few years back, all the locals kept talking to me in Spanish when first addressing me. They all thought I was Mexican, so maybe it would be a good idea for me to avoid Arizona? LMAO

I don't think I want to be deported "back" to Mexico... I don't trust the Canadian government to help get me out !

I'm glad you understand, but please explain it to me! I don't get it at all.

Vulchor

I think there arfe 2 things at play here Alex. 1---Is if doing this is profiling or not. and 2. Many people feel this will only strain the relationship illegals have with L.E. in the area and they will not longer help solve crimes out of fear................I dont buy either one personally and dont care either, but thats why is being spouted about.

kuzi16

Alex,
the argument is that this law could bring about a situation where racial profiling is used as the only reason to stop and question somebody. though the law was set up specifically not to do that, there are still bad cops, overly worked/frustrated boarder guards, and, generally speaking, people making snap judgments based on race.
the argument is that racism exists, and that this law could be abused as such.



i hope that helps.

Alex Williams

thanks Kuzi and Vulchor! That really helps!

fla-gypsy

Of course if the Federal Govt would do it's constitutional responsibility all this would not be needed. This type of law will soon spread throught the southern tier of states except perhaps Kaliforny. Just because someone may somehow abuse their power does not make it bad law. That can happen anywhere, anyday, anytime and does not cause us to abandon the rule of law in any other matter. When it comes down to it i believe it will be upheld at the Supreme court level.

PuroFreak

Alex Williams:

thanks Kuzi and Vulchor! That really helps!

Also I think the biggest issue with the entire law is how it is being portrayed by the media and by some members of our federal government. The law is being misrepresented like I've never seen before. The media and the President are telling people if you don't have multiple forms if ID on you that a police officer will drive you directly to the border and kick you out. This is absolutely not true. My advice for anyone would be to read the law and come up with your own conclusion. It's roughly 20 pages with all the revisions and doesn't take long to read at all. I've read through both versions multiple times and I realized the people who are criticizing it as promoting racism or hatred have no idea what it actually says. The law is actually less intrusive than the current federal laws. Most people don't realize it, but I.C.E. can ask anyone at anytime for no reason at all to prove their citizenship status... The Arizona law does not allow this to happen without reasonable suspicion and in the courts the officer will have to prove that race was not a factor in his decision to check someones citizenship status... There just seems to be way to much disinformation out there about this whole deal. Rather than trying to fight through all the B.S. it's much easier to read the thing for yourself.

laker1963

PuroFreak:

Alex Williams:

thanks Kuzi and Vulchor! That really helps!

Also I think the biggest issue with the entire law is how it is being portrayed by the media and by some members of our federal government. The law is being misrepresented like I've never seen before. The media and the President are telling people if you don't have multiple forms if ID on you that a police officer will drive you directly to the border and kick you out. This is absolutely not true. My advice for anyone would be to read the law and come up with your own conclusion. It's roughly 20 pages with all the revisions and doesn't take long to read at all. I've read through both versions multiple times and I realized the people who are criticizing it as promoting racism or hatred have no idea what it actually says. The law is actually less intrusive than the current federal laws. Most people don't realize it, but I.C.E. can ask anyone at anytime for no reason at all to prove their citizenship status... The Arizona law does not allow this to happen without reasonable suspicion and in the courts the officer will have to prove that race was not a factor in his decision to check someones citizenship status... There just seems to be way to much disinformation out there about this whole deal. Rather than trying to fight through all the B.S. it's much easier to read the thing for yourself.

This is very true. Relying on the mainstream news only, for information can get you a lot of confusion, but very little sometimes by way of answers. Even if the law was racial profilling in any of it's first or second draft... I am sure the writter of the law did not intend for it to be used in that manner.

But it gave the news media something to talk about, and probably sold a few extra newspapers judging by the sensationalism in some of the stories I read. WOW.

fla-gypsy

laker1963:

PuroFreak:

Alex Williams:

thanks Kuzi and Vulchor! That really helps!

Also I think the biggest issue with the entire law is how it is being portrayed by the media and by some members of our federal government. The law is being misrepresented like I've never seen before. The media and the President are telling people if you don't have multiple forms if ID on you that a police officer will drive you directly to the border and kick you out. This is absolutely not true. My advice for anyone would be to read the law and come up with your own conclusion. It's roughly 20 pages with all the revisions and doesn't take long to read at all. I've read through both versions multiple times and I realized the people who are criticizing it as promoting racism or hatred have no idea what it actually says. The law is actually less intrusive than the current federal laws. Most people don't realize it, but I.C.E. can ask anyone at anytime for no reason at all to prove their citizenship status... The Arizona law does not allow this to happen without reasonable suspicion and in the courts the officer will have to prove that race was not a factor in his decision to check someones citizenship status... There just seems to be way to much disinformation out there about this whole deal. Rather than trying to fight through all the B.S. it's much easier to read the thing for yourself.

This is very true. Relying on the mainstream news only, for information can get you a lot of confusion, but very little sometimes by way of answers. Even if the law was racial profilling in any of it's first or second draft... I am sure the writter of the law did not intend for it to be used in that manner.

But it gave the news media something to talk about, and probably sold a few extra newspapers judging by the sensationalism in some of the stories I read. WOW.

Dang it Laker, we found something to agree on, very scary

cabinetmaker

fla-gypsy:

laker1963:

PuroFreak:

Alex Williams:

thanks Kuzi and Vulchor! That really helps!

Also I think the biggest issue with the entire law is how it is being portrayed by the media and by some members of our federal government. The law is being misrepresented like I've never seen before. The media and the President are telling people if you don't have multiple forms if ID on you that a police officer will drive you directly to the border and kick you out. This is absolutely not true. My advice for anyone would be to read the law and come up with your own conclusion. It's roughly 20 pages with all the revisions and doesn't take long to read at all. I've read through both versions multiple times and I realized the people who are criticizing it as promoting racism or hatred have no idea what it actually says. The law is actually less intrusive than the current federal laws. Most people don't realize it, but I.C.E. can ask anyone at anytime for no reason at all to prove their citizenship status... The Arizona law does not allow this to happen without reasonable suspicion and in the courts the officer will have to prove that race was not a factor in his decision to check someones citizenship status... There just seems to be way to much disinformation out there about this whole deal. Rather than trying to fight through all the B.S. it's much easier to read the thing for yourself.

This is very true. Relying on the mainstream news only, for information can get you a lot of confusion, but very little sometimes by way of answers. Even if the law was racial profilling in any of it's first or second draft... I am sure the writter of the law did not intend for it to be used in that manner.

But it gave the news media something to talk about, and probably sold a few extra newspapers judging by the sensationalism in some of the stories I read. WOW.

Dang it Laker, we found something to agree on, very scary

Did you hear that? I think I just heard the first seal being broken...

laker1963

cabinetmaker:

fla-gypsy:

laker1963:

PuroFreak:

Alex Williams:

thanks Kuzi and Vulchor! That really helps!

Also I think the biggest issue with the entire law is how it is being portrayed by the media and by some members of our federal government. The law is being misrepresented like I've never seen before. The media and the President are telling people if you don't have multiple forms if ID on you that a police officer will drive you directly to the border and kick you out. This is absolutely not true. My advice for anyone would be to read the law and come up with your own conclusion. It's roughly 20 pages with all the revisions and doesn't take long to read at all. I've read through both versions multiple times and I realized the people who are criticizing it as promoting racism or hatred have no idea what it actually says. The law is actually less intrusive than the current federal laws. Most people don't realize it, but I.C.E. can ask anyone at anytime for no reason at all to prove their citizenship status... The Arizona law does not allow this to happen without reasonable suspicion and in the courts the officer will have to prove that race was not a factor in his decision to check someones citizenship status... There just seems to be way to much disinformation out there about this whole deal. Rather than trying to fight through all the B.S. it's much easier to read the thing for yourself.

This is very true. Relying on the mainstream news only, for information can get you a lot of confusion, but very little sometimes by way of answers. Even if the law was racial profilling in any of it's first or second draft... I am sure the writter of the law did not intend for it to be used in that manner.

But it gave the news media something to talk about, and probably sold a few extra newspapers judging by the sensationalism in some of the stories I read. WOW.

Dang it Laker, we found something to agree on, very scary

Did you hear that? I think I just heard the first seal being broken...

Don't hold your breath. I give it about 20 minutes and gypsy will find some way to blame all this on Obama. LMAO

Redtailhawkoz

Its to little to late...... the day i went to my Locally Owned Bank in OHIO and it asked me engish or spanish i said WTF is this We Live in AMERICA. Now living in California and Passing Hoards of Mexicans Standing on the corners (dayworkers who do jobs that Lazy welfare accepting americans wont do) and getting some explanations ... do you guys relise what produce would cost if we didnt have CHEAP Labor Picking it? Lets calll Ted Nugent in to this one!

Vulchor

Ozzie makes the valid point that many people would not want the goods we rely on now without cheap illegal labor doing it to keep prices down----just think about the local produce section. Of course, we wouldnt have 6 dollar collared shirts and 10 dollar pants either without similar cheap labor in other countries. I for one would gladly pay the extra to know its U.S. labor getting paid, and hold steafast to my wall with armed men every few hundered yards as the best idea.

Joeyjoe21_8

a couple things. First, its not profiling! When a police officer pulls someone over, they ask you for your drivers license. If its a immigrant and they dont have one, then they ask for a passport with green card proving they are here LEGALLY!...if they cant provide and are here illegally, then ship their ass outa here.....THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY!....there was a man in texas, and when a large group of illegal aliens broke the lock on his barn to get inside, he caught them and held them at gun point for fear of his HOUSE AND HIS FAMILY, called border patrol and got them picked up and thrown back to mexico...he is now being sued for 30million dollars and the case is now in front of the supreme court....seriosuly...supreme court....***, this case should have never existed!!! They are here ILLEGALLY....as well, there is a woman in Sacramento CA, she is illegal and went on camera to admit it, she has 5 kids who were born here so legally we have to care for them. The wonderful state of california is now paying her 1800 a month PER KID, plus we give them free meals and money for books and supplies for school as well as free medical, and dental....do the math, 5 kids x 1800= 9000 a month she makes for being illegal and yet we do nothing. Screw that, kids go to mexico with her ass and we save 120grand a year! Congrats arizone, I hope every state stands up for this law!

mrpillow

I do not see why racial profiling is looked down upon so heavily on society. Profiling of any sort is as natural an occurence as breathing, and a result of nothing more than a perfect example of traditional operative conditioning. If interacting with something, in this case a certain race of people, regularly leads to an undesirable result that is beyond your control, there is no reason one shouldn't develop a fear or distaste of the factors that go into creating that situation.

Just my two cents.

thedjfish@comcast.net

well here my 2 cents on this, i live in chicago's largest mexican community, been here 30yrs,
but i agree with the law since i have been and have seen the illegals come and do damage,
then the flee back to mexico to avoid prosecution
i have been in accidents with them in turn i get stuck with the bill since they dont have I.D.,Divers lic, and of course no insurance,
im a 4th generation mexican born here on my moms side and 1st gen on my dads side,served in the marines for 9yrs
i agree that the country needs to crack down on this and crack down hard,we cant be paying for they're own countries faults
so what ever it takes i say,
i watched when a couple yrs ago they raided discount mall here i was cheering,that was long over do,
just my 2 cents
joe

Joeyjoe21_8

oh i forgot to mention this as well in my last rant..... Did you know...that if you call Bank of America, if your signing up for a bank account or credit card, the auto response asks you to press 1 for english, or 2 for spanish....if your fluent in spanish, try pressing two,and get a rep on the phone...only speak spanish though....and when applying, they wont ask you for a Social security number at all.....they will just ask for a password that you make up when you call in....if they do ask for SSN and you say you dont have one, they say, ok please think of a password you wont forget....and bam instant approval for credit!!!1 SO BS

laker1963

Joeyjoe21_8:

a couple things. First, its not profiling! When a police officer pulls someone over, they ask you for your drivers license. If its a immigrant and they dont have one, then they ask for a passport with green card proving they are here LEGALLY!...if they cant provide and are here illegally, then ship their ass outa here.....THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY!....there was a man in texas, and when a large group of illegal aliens broke the lock on his barn to get inside, he caught them and held them at gun point for fear of his HOUSE AND HIS FAMILY, called border patrol and got them picked up and thrown back to mexico...he is now being sued for 30million dollars and the case is now in front of the supreme court....seriosuly...supreme court....***, this case should have never existed!!! They are here ILLEGALLY....as well, there is a woman in Sacramento CA, she is illegal and went on camera to admit it, she has 5 kids who were born here so legally we have to care for them. The wonderful state of california is now paying her 1800 a month PER KID, plus we give them free meals and money for books and supplies for school as well as free medical, and dental....do the math, 5 kids x 1800= 9000 a month she makes for being illegal and yet we do nothing. Screw that, kids go to mexico with her ass and we save 120grand a year! Congrats arizone, I hope every state stands up for this law!

Can anyone else verify this? I mean that doesn't sound right at all. Perhaps $1800 a month total but I don't believe that she would get this for each kid.

Also, if she does indeed get that amount, then the US is FAR MORE socialist then Canada. Because I can tell you, she wouldn't be getting that kind of money in this country.

As for the profiling Joeyjoe21_8... I think what the concern was that the police would pull over any and every person who looked Mexican, just to check and see if they were illegals. Kind of the same as stopping all black men every time a cop sees one just to see if they may have drugs or stolen property or whatever.

If the police act the way you claim they will, then I think you are right, no papers then you get a one way ticket "home", but if they use a person's look to stop them and ask for papers, then that sounds an awful lot like Nazi germany,and their treatment of Jewish people during the war, at least to me. It's all in how the police utilize the legislation, IMO.

vegassparky

check where i am from. i live ten minutes from the arizona border. las vegas has the same problems arizona has . the law wasnt a new law. they are just gonna use it now. i can see some racial concerns. this will happen. but if you are here legally, you got nothing to worry about. do your home work. if you go to mexico and you dont have the right paperwork you go to jail. not deported. atleast we send you home not to jail. it is the first step to a huge problem...with no easy solution

laker1963

vegassparky:

check where i am from. i live ten minutes from the arizona border. las vegas has the same problems arizona has . the law wasnt a new law. they are just gonna use it now. i can see some racial concerns. this will happen. but if you are here legally, you got nothing to worry about. do your home work. if you go to mexico and you dont have the right paperwork you go to jail. not deported. atleast we send you home not to jail. it is the first step to a huge problem...with no easy solution

I agree, for the most part. I was just trying to point out that if you are an American Mexican you may face being stopped several times a day, day in and day out. Surely that would "get old" real quick. But it is a problem that needs addressing all right.

minibeezy

I just don't see how police officers are just going to start pulling people over just because of skin color. They have enough to do. However, as someone else said, if they pull you over for speeding/traffic/fix-it, etc and you can't prove citizenship, they now have to ask and act accordingly. There has to be 'reasonable suspicion'. Having brown skin does not qualify. I'm not saying it won't happen at all, but I think people are blowing the profiling argument out of proportion.
My .02

vegassparky

totally agree. we cant go to the hardware store without there being 20 illegals that cant find jobs, trying to jump on our trucks. they think we are gonna have work for them.the major problem is unemployment goes up and so does crime here.when the market was strong immigration wasnt a hot issue. the big problem that we have is ....some illegals have drove drunk. killed a innocent person and ran back to mexico. without paying for killing someone

Vulchor

There are bad and racist cops out there breezy that will make this their personal crusade...and "reasonable" is a broad term...so i understands that argument. However, it often seems the problem most people have with profiling is that so ofen it seems to work so well and they hate something this simplistic could be true.

minibeezy

Vulchor:

There are bad and racist cops out there breezy that will make this their personal crusade...and "reasonable" is a broad term...so i understands that argument. However, it often seems the problem most people have with profiling is that so ofen it seems to work so well and they hate something this simplistic could be true.

I'm not saying that it wont happen, but with as many people that will be watching Arizona should this come into effect, I think that anyone abusing the system will be exposed very quickly and dealt with even faster by those in charge.

I guess I'm more responding to the argument that cops are just going to pull people over because they have brown skin. There will be too many watchdogs and people paying attention for those cops that might do this to get away with it. If you give an officer a reason to pull you over or attract attention to yourself, have your ID on you and you have nothing to worry about.

phobicsquirrel

So the gov is meeting with Obama and they are still missing the issue. For some reason this governor misses the point that the laws already exist to help quell this problem, employers must go through a process to see if someone is a legal citizen! Hell go after them, but no let's go after brown people instead...
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_ARIZONA_GOVERNOR?SITE=TXKER&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Amos Umwhat

Joeyjoe21_8:

a couple things. First, its not profiling! When a police officer pulls someone over, they ask you for your drivers license. If its a immigrant and they dont have one, then they ask for a passport with green card proving they are here LEGALLY!...if they cant provide and are here illegally, then ship their ass outa here.....THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY!....there was a man in texas, and when a large group of illegal aliens broke the lock on his barn to get inside, he caught them and held them at gun point for fear of his HOUSE AND HIS FAMILY, called border patrol and got them picked up and thrown back to mexico...he is now being sued for 30million dollars and the case is now in front of the supreme court....seriosuly...supreme court....***, this case should have never existed!!! They are here ILLEGALLY....as well, there is a woman in Sacramento CA, she is illegal and went on camera to admit it, she has 5 kids who were born here so legally we have to care for them. The wonderful state of california is now paying her 1800 a month PER KID, plus we give them free meals and money for books and supplies for school as well as free medical, and dental....do the math, 5 kids x 1800= 9000 a month she makes for being illegal and yet we do nothing. Screw that, kids go to mexico with her ass and we save 120grand a year! Congrats arizone, I hope every state stands up for this law!

You know, the world sure has gotten screwy. In '74, fresh out of High School, I hitchhiked all over the U.S. Everywhere I went, the police wanted to see ID, run background checks, etc., because I had hair half-way down to my waist, and a back-pack. In other words, because of how I looked. Later years, in various countries in Europe and Northern Africa, police asked me for my passport, because I looked American, or had white skin. I never felt "profiled", or cared, and Nobody was up in arms about me. Then, I had a kid with my wife, and I had to pay all the bills, food, doctors, whatever, and Nobody gave me a cent, unless I worked for it. Why are we feeding freeloaders, and OF COURSE they get looked at on racial basis, we're being invaded by THAT race of people right now. Huge potential for abuse, though, so we must demand that the authorities proceed carefully, thoughtfully, etc., but let's not stop them from proceeding at all, don't you think?

laker1963

laker1963:

Joeyjoe21_8:

a couple things. First, its not profiling! When a police officer pulls someone over, they ask you for your drivers license. If its a immigrant and they dont have one, then they ask for a passport with green card proving they are here LEGALLY!...if they cant provide and are here illegally, then ship their ass outa here.....THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY!....there was a man in texas, and when a large group of illegal aliens broke the lock on his barn to get inside, he caught them and held them at gun point for fear of his HOUSE AND HIS FAMILY, called border patrol and got them picked up and thrown back to mexico...he is now being sued for 30million dollars and the case is now in front of the supreme court....seriosuly...supreme court....***, this case should have never existed!!! They are here ILLEGALLY....as well, there is a woman in Sacramento CA, she is illegal and went on camera to admit it, she has 5 kids who were born here so legally we have to care for them. The wonderful state of california is now paying her 1800 a month PER KID, plus we give them free meals and money for books and supplies for school as well as free medical, and dental....do the math, 5 kids x 1800= 9000 a month she makes for being illegal and yet we do nothing. Screw that, kids go to mexico with her ass and we save 120grand a year! Congrats arizone, I hope every state stands up for this law!

Can anyone else verify this? I mean that doesn't sound right at all. Perhaps $1800 a month total but I don't believe that she would get this for each kid.

Also, if she does indeed get that amount, then the US is FAR MORE socialist then Canada. Because I can tell you, she wouldn't be getting that kind of money in this country.

As for the profiling Joeyjoe21_8... I think what the concern was that the police would pull over any and every person who looked Mexican, just to check and see if they were illegals. Kind of the same as stopping all black men every time a cop sees one just to see if they may have drugs or stolen property or whatever.

If the police act the way you claim they will, then I think you are right, no papers then you get a one way ticket "home", but if they use a person's look to stop them and ask for papers, then that sounds an awful lot like Nazi germany,and their treatment of Jewish people during the war, at least to me. It's all in how the police utilize the legislation, IMO.

BUMP

bacon.jay

I feel that many people who have responded to this thread have made very valid points, but I think the one thing that would help with this is if the United States would ball-up and declare English the official language already. If the people from Mexico want to be here that badly, why don't they just become naturalized citizens, like nearly every other nationality of foreigner who wishes to reside here?

Just learn our damned language and our system of government and take the damn test like everybody else.

phobicsquirrel

laker1963:

vegassparky:

check where i am from. i live ten minutes from the arizona border. las vegas has the same problems arizona has . the law wasnt a new law. they are just gonna use it now. i can see some racial concerns. this will happen. but if you are here legally, you got nothing to worry about. do your home work. if you go to mexico and you dont have the right paperwork you go to jail. not deported. atleast we send you home not to jail. it is the first step to a huge problem...with no easy solution

I agree, for the most part. I was just trying to point out that if you are an American Mexican you may face being stopped several times a day, day in and day out. Surely that would "get old" real quick. But it is a problem that needs addressing all right.

exactly! Maybe we should make them put colors on, I mean might as well. That way we can all see who they are. I mean it worked for nazi germany. This is really wrong. Jan Brewer still doesn't get it. She wants to build a fence, more troops at the border, which is really funny since can anyone tell me when in history this worked? I mean the great wall of china didn't keep the Mongols out? A fence won't stop it. People come here for two reasons, money/work or to traffic. If they can't get jobs they will more than likely move on, Mexico could perhaps make their people happier by I dunno, giving them jobs that pay decently. Here's a good read on how dumb this lady is and how stubborn. I don't like what these ranchers have to deal with any bit but putting up a fence and making it more of a police state isn't the way to go. I mean already the police have so much power.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_ARIZONA_GOVERNOR?SITE=TXKER&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT