Anyone remember about a year ago when Joey collected an insane ammount of sticks and bombed the *** out of our troops? I thought that was pretty cool.
You kinda hit the nail on the head yourself with this post wwestern. And before I go any farther, let me put this in all caps before the flamethrowers get fired up - THIS IS ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL.
Somewhere on the order of a YEAR ago.
No DC numbers to be found. Not one.
Not a single picture from a single grateful troop.
Not a single post or letter from a single grateful troop.
And a YEAR LATER, there is still half a bag of cigars laying around? When there are THREE USO locations an hour and a half drive away? That's disturbing enough.
More disturbing is the fact that the whereabouts of the half a bag not sitting around cant be verified. ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL. Had a bunch of people who donated cigars wondering though....
I'm sorry guys I thought this deal was on the up and up or I never would've chimed in.... that's pretty low if this was a scam.
Actually after a PM from some one I look up to, let me add good ridance.
Once again, I know am a newbie so tell me to shut up but maybe some of the forum "rules" for games and passes/trades etc should be made a little more stringent.
Often times the rules require a 25 post minimum. Well, half of you guys didn't even respond to many of my posts in the beginning. Regardless of the fact that I had 25 posts, I had enough common sense to stay away from many of the games and whatnot until I had built up a little bit of a reputation/credit within the forum. I would like to think that I have earned some respect from member in here and I am certainly proud to be a member of this forum.
Should things be more strict until we get a chance to ensure a newbie doesn't take advantage of the system and actually gets to know some of the guys within the forum?
Let's just reiterate that the guy who set this shitstorm off, Joey, isn't a newbie. He's been a member for more than a year and has more than 2000 posts. Just sayin that you'd be well served to remember that the issues are few and far between here and the most recent one involves someone who isn't new to the forums. So don't go too far overboard fixing something that ain't that broke.
Let's just reiterate that the guy who set this shitstorm off, Joey, isn't a newbie. He's been a member for more than a year and has more than 2000 posts. Just sayin that you'd be well served to remember that the issues are few and far between here and the most recent one involves someone who isn't new to the forums. So don't go too far overboard fixing something that ain't that broke.
I think you make a good arguement for what we are saying. If the good traders list was used for its intended purpose from the start this would not be a problem. Stating that a trade has gone wrong after a reasonable time has elapsed and PM have solved nothing is not wrong at all. It is what the good traders list was for. It has become a rather bloated thread of pictures and comments rather then being used in a manner which would render it useful. IT ISN"T broke, it just needs to be utilized properly and BOTL here should be sure of who they are dealing with by using caution and time to decide who is KEWL and who isn't. As for Joey being not a new member that is true. What has also come to light is that there were problem which dated back a fair bit of time... back to when he was a much newer member. Because the Good traders thread was not utilized it went unnoticed for some time. It is not an issue with BOTL reporting on the good traders thread it is how is it done. If you have a problem report it and try to keep the personal feelings out of it, as hard as that can be. Don't fill the thread with a bunch of pictures and unrelated comments and it won't be so bloated and easier to follow real reports on trades. Reading the first post in the good traders thread goes a long way IMO.
... in the end, Oz felt slighted (understatement probably).
As well he should have. I thought Ozzie was a well-respected BOTL on these forums, and the (BIG WORD OF THE DAY ALERT!) alacrity with which he was flamed by a BUNCH of other BOTL because of his tone when he was trying to warn us about a potential problem instead of listening to what he had to say.
To rub salt in the wound, a bunch of us (five at the time including myself, and that list has since grown to nine if anyone's curious) who had firsthand problems of our own regarding trades, etc with the individual in question sat back on our keesters and said NOTHING while Oz was getting flamed because we didnt want to "rock the boat" or have "forum drama" attached to our names - when all it would have taken to bring this issue to full light was for enough of us to do the right thing by standing up and backing Oz when he spoke the truth.
I, for one, AM NOT going to let that happen again. If there was anyone who has tried to do the right thing by people we all call brothers from jump, its been Ozzie and bip. I think if you asked Oz, even he would admit he didnt do it in the most politically correct manner... and lets face it, thats Oz being Oz. LOL If you want political correctness, best look somewhere else.
I will go on record with two apologies right now - first to Oz for not standing up with you the first go round. Despite that, you stuck with me and remained a friend. Much respect brother, you continue to set an example.
Secondly, to the BOTL who have had difficulties with the individual in question SINCE Oz called BS last time - part of what you dealt with is my fault because I was a coward who didnt want to get involved. I own it and Im truly sorry.
+1, I struggled with it a bit. Didn't want to get involved in it last time because adults should handle problems with one another as they see fit. At the same time, wanted to avoid future issues for others. Didn't want to pile on or stick my nose in where it didn't belong. Just wanted to be fair. Couldn't see a clear way to do it, naturally when this popped up I felt a little sickened. Normally, I wouldn't get into this, but Sniper pretty much nailed how I was feeling on the whole deal and I don't want it to happen again without saying my piece.
I agree on the "aint broke don't fix it" theme BTW. I know I haven't had other issues and I hope others can say the same for me. If you are out there and you had an issue with something I did or didn't do - let me know how you see fit and I will make it right.
The problems here are not many----but there are little issues that add up to things like this, and everyone speaking has something correct they are talking about.
Laker is right about "newbies" and while this has been a term that we proudly have not used here often, there is something to be said for it----remember the cheap bum asking for to be bombed in his first post a few months ago?-----But in addition to this, the "good traders thread" has turned into a picture thread of winnings. While thats fun to see, I think it totally defeats the purpose of what the thread was intended (and best utilized) for.
I think there is TOO MUCH of a stigma as well for stating the truth about other people here. Im not talking personal issues (Puro or Kuzi and my dumb a$$ for instance ahwile back) Im talking about stuff like with Joey. We throw the BOTL/BORK names around like its a badge of honor in which a man can do no wrong. Then when you criticize them, even when just, youre seen as attacking the whole institution or person as an individual. In order to be a great forum, there needs to be good traders, and trust, and BORKs, and honesty-----but there also needs to be a counter balance there to proect the same people we all hold so dear from those who may not have such good intentions.
PM of course should be utilized to handle this in all ways possible. But when you have tried PM many times, over a long period of time, and the other person does not respond OR after lengthy period NEVER does anything to fix the issues----what is one to do then? By saying nothing, your f*cking the ones you claim your trying to protect, your BOTL's.
With due time, due diligence, and no favorable response (or no response at all) there should be a way to war fellow guys to "proceed with caution". Not a way to blast a guy as a dou*hebag, a$$hole, or other personal insult. Just a way to say what went down and when...what actions were taken and not taken....and not guys feel free to do what you want with that person. Saying nothing after a bad issue that is never resolved seems to me like getting food posioning from a place, but not telling your buddy who plans to eat the same thing on the same day (theroretical I know) for fear of offending someone or just staying out of it.
i dont have much to say here, mainly because i dont wanna be a part of this drama BS.
i will tell you how i do trades.
I dont trade nearly as much as others do here. I am INCREDIBLY selective on who i trade with. i have only once done a trade with a guy on here that i did not feel was a "good friend," and even the time i did, i had to receive their cigars before i sent out mine. i have always looked at trades here with skepticism and a "buyer beware" attitude. i have a list of people that i wont trade with. i have a list of people i will not hesitate to trade with. I dont advertise these lists because it is about a trust between me and that other person. i almost never look at the good traders list. (though its required in all the contests i run) if there is any doubt at all, im out.
F_U_C_K_ I get a JOB disapear from the forums for a while due to INSANE BUSY LIFE and I miss all the GREAT ***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED HERE DD......... From What I See ............... LOL I hate to Say I told you all so!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PM DD and let me in on the Goodies!
Was wondering when you were going to jump in on this......
As you can tell I didnt Jump in on anything... YOU JUST DID ON ME ! I dont see any m,ention of you .. as amatter of fact I had no clue what it was about... Do u see any reference to you? LOL
I usually stay out of stuff like this, but ....technically Oz, anyone who has been on this forum knows who you are talking about. But you did mention Joey indirectly.
... in the end, Oz felt slighted (understatement probably).
As well he should have. I thought Ozzie was a well-respected BOTL on these forums, and the (BIG WORD OF THE DAY ALERT!) alacrity with which he was flamed by a BUNCH of other BOTL because of his tone when he was trying to warn us about a potential problem instead of listening to what he had to say.
To rub salt in the wound, a bunch of us (five at the time including myself, and that list has since grown to nine if anyone's curious) who had firsthand problems of our own regarding trades, etc with the individual in question sat back on our keesters and said NOTHING while Oz was getting flamed because we didnt want to "rock the boat" or have "forum drama" attached to our names - when all it would have taken to bring this issue to full light was for enough of us to do the right thing by standing up and backing Oz when he spoke the truth.
I, for one, AM NOT going to let that happen again. If there was anyone who has tried to do the right thing by people we all call brothers from jump, its been Ozzie and bip. I think if you asked Oz, even he would admit he didnt do it in the most politically correct manner... and lets face it, thats Oz being Oz. LOL If you want political correctness, best look somewhere else.
I will go on record with two apologies right now - first to Oz for not standing up with you the first go round. Despite that, you stuck with me and remained a friend. Much respect brother, you continue to set an example.
Secondly, to the BOTL who have had difficulties with the individual in question SINCE Oz called BS last time - part of what you dealt with is my fault because I was a coward who didnt want to get involved. I own it and Im truly sorry.
Thank you for the Love........ Its all good, When *** like this happens you find out who is real and who is not.... I know who is real and who is not and Like me or not I am as Real as they Gte, you will ALWAYS know where I stand.... No PHONY HERE, I love this FOrum and MOST of the GUys On it. Glenn you have been a TRUE freind from the First BOMB ...... Many Others I call my friends as well. I am not Piling on anything FACTS speak for themselves and the TRUTH ALWAYS comes out.....
I have used this Quote for most of my Adult life
"HONSETY IS MY ONLY EXCUSE"
...though you didn't like MetallicA, Oz? Or was it just that you didn't like them contaminating the Irons thread...either way you got a good song stuck in my head, so thanks for that!!
"F*ck it all and f*cking no regrets. Never happy ending on these dark sets."
Just remember, 1 user in particular always stood up for said bad apple, regarding the whole "for the troops" cigars issue. Just keep that in mind, maybe you now have 2 people to be wary of.
I think the problem here is a matter of restraint and emotion. The posts I've seen reporting bad trades are usually so full of emotion, and have such a distinct lack of restraint that I had a hard time reading them, or taking them seriously. It's like anything else in life, if you want people to listen, take a breath and stowe the emotion. With this being a forum you have all the time in world to compose your message. Spell check, proof read, and actually think about your message before you hit post. Especially if you're making a post that involves something so serious.
i dont have much to say here, mainly because i dont wanna be a part of this drama BS.
i have always looked at trades here with skepticism and a "buyer beware" attitude.
Alex Williams:
To me, bombing is a way to show respect and gratitude.
Much like Kuzi, I try to stay out of the drama, and thats why I'm not commenting on what started this or the changes people are proposing or what not. I'm here to talk cigars, and maybe some sports and cars too and thats really about it.
But I did feel like sharing what I view as two important general points made so far.
Kuzi you say you view trades with skepticism, and I 100% agree. But wanted to take it one step further, and add that people should be careful when sending out cigars that mean alot to you for whatever reason. Maybe thats easy for me to say that because my humi is filled with very reasonably priced easy to come by smokes, becaue thats what fits me. To me cigars are meant to be smoked and shared. I understand that the hobby means different things to everyone, and some are collectors, some are agers, some are into the best of the best, etc, but regardless of what your preferences are and what the hobby meants to you, I do think its appropriate to be careful when trading anyhting that's personal.
the second point from Alex, is also worth mentioning, because I like his viewpoint here. Bombs are a way to reach out to someone and say "hey I appreciate your opinion", or "I appreciate what you add to the forum", maybe someone offers to bomb some sticks of a line that someone is thinking of buying, or maybe just a cross country highfive. I think Alex nailed that perfectly in his description.
Just adding my two cents here to two great points already made.
Just remember, 1 user in particular always stood up for said bad apple, regarding the whole "for the troops" cigars issue. Just keep that in mind, maybe you now have 2 people to be wary of.
Vulchor:
HAY, who are you referring to there blurr?
Really? I leave the forum for a few weeks, and I come back to a witchhunt? Obviously I missed out on the original thread apparently jumping on Joey, but having caught up on this one I just can't believe what this forum has been reduced to. Right now, I know I owe two guys packages, and I've kept in touch with both of them (if not, let me know gentlemen) regarding being late. Other than that, I personally have kept myself away from games/trades/etc for a good while just because I know that I procrastinate and/or forget about things, and determine on my own that it's not right for others to deal with my BS. Other than that, if I haven't been a stand-up man and trader the entire damn time I've been on this board, SOMEONE come out and tell me so - don't pussyfoot around BOTH of you and say what you're trying to say.
We all know this is a public forum and for the most part there are some pretty cools people on here..From time to time somebody will chime in to say something negative about ccom and what not and we usually jump on them to defend cigar.com and our forum (since this forum is for us). I feel if you are going to start a thread or make a post but please stand behind it. Positive or negative post just please stand behind what you posted. If you read your thread or your post and have to second guess yourself then dont hit the post button. If you rather handle things through PM then by all means handle your business that way. I say if it gets posted and its not anything that ccom HAS to take down then it should stay there. We are all grown ups if you have something to say that you want everyone to read then here is the place to do it, if you dont want it to be read or commented on then please dont post it. Just my thoughts and I am not second guessing this one so I will go ahead and hit the post button now!
Not pussyfooting around anything, or saying anything about you in particular. It was just mentioned...again...about the cigars for the troops and the "shadiness" of it all lets say. You defended the man, and I hope that was a fair and accurate defense. However, it seems (and most of this is thru PM contrary to popular belief) one or two or even 5 of us have not had strictly isolated incidents or reason to question the honesty of a paritcular member.
Let's just reiterate that the guy who set this shitstorm off, Joey, isn't a newbie. He's been a member for more than a year and has more than 2000 posts. Just sayin that you'd be well served to remember that the issues are few and far between here and the most recent one involves someone who isn't new to the forums. So don't go too far overboard fixing something that ain't that broke.
Fellas, Ive been thinking a lot about this the last couple days, and I think Ive got an idea that might work for all of us & would (hopefully) prevent anything like this from happening again. Im gonna try and experimental thread sometime over the weekend (again hopefully, when Im not working or recovering from it). If it passes my initial tests, I will report back here and see what everyone thinks about it.
I hope this isnt too "unilateral" of me, but I was thinking before this whole rigamorole fades away maybe we should try to act and see what we can come up with. Wish me luck!
Just came across this thread and thought i would add my .02.
There have been many good points through out this thread and i have to agree with the ones saying we shouldnt re invent the wheel. But i think we should possibly modify it.
Kreig makes a great point on how he trades and i think we should all consider that.
I think we can try adding 3 new threads to help out distinguishing who to trade with and who to be cautious with.
The 3 threads i think we should have are, Good Traders, Bombers, "Bad Trades".
Now this probably wont stop the few incidents that happen but hopefully present facts to all parties that want to trade and play the games on the board.
Good Trades - Should just be a quick post, not putting pictures up and filling the thread with "fluff" but again facts. X sent package great shape etc..
Bombers - As someone stated bombing someone doesnt mean that they will be a good trader this thread you can throw pics up etc but this will just say hey X hit me with a great package for no reason.
and then finally "bad trades" - this thread should again just state the facts. Alot of people get tied up with life and space sending a package, this thread will help with the people that do get busy with life to remind them they have to send a package out and will hopefully send it. This will also help give a warning to every one else that this person may not be best to trade with.
Again this is just my .02 on a way to help prevent trades going south in the future.
Not a bad idea at all Rasch. I dont know why CCom couldnt come up with a "feedback" section of people's profiles, where people could leave feedback on interactions with members. Perhaps a system like with the stars available on threads for a quick look, and perhaps see the actual feedback if they clicked on the word "Feedback" beside the stars.
Im no internet wizard, but with the ones we have among the BOTL on the forums I cant see how this could be some massive undertaking???
I have only done a couple of trades and been the recipient of some awesome BOTL generosity and have never had a bad experience. The only cigars for troops I participated in was totally legit with pics and thanks from the guys. Whatever you guys set up is alright with me.
Ok so i took the inciative to start the 3 threads i suggested. lets see if its something thats needed and works if not then as a few BOTL said it was not needed and these are few and far between.
Comments
Actually after a PM from some one I look up to, let me add good ridance.
Often times the rules require a 25 post minimum. Well, half of you guys didn't even respond to many of my posts in the beginning. Regardless of the fact that I had 25 posts, I had enough common sense to stay away from many of the games and whatnot until I had built up a little bit of a reputation/credit within the forum. I would like to think that I have earned some respect from member in here and I am certainly proud to be a member of this forum.
Should things be more strict until we get a chance to ensure a newbie doesn't take advantage of the system and actually gets to know some of the guys within the forum?
As for Joey being not a new member that is true. What has also come to light is that there were problem which dated back a fair bit of time... back to when he was a much newer member. Because the Good traders thread was not utilized it went unnoticed for some time.
It is not an issue with BOTL reporting on the good traders thread it is how is it done. If you have a problem report it and try to keep the personal feelings out of it, as hard as that can be. Don't fill the thread with a bunch of pictures and unrelated comments and it won't be so bloated and easier to follow real reports on trades. Reading the first post in the good traders thread goes a long way IMO.
+1, I struggled with it a bit. Didn't want to get involved in it last time because adults should handle problems with one another as they see fit. At the same time, wanted to avoid future issues for others. Didn't want to pile on or stick my nose in where it didn't belong. Just wanted to be fair. Couldn't see a clear way to do it, naturally when this popped up I felt a little sickened. Normally, I wouldn't get into this, but Sniper pretty much nailed how I was feeling on the whole deal and I don't want it to happen again without saying my piece.
I agree on the "aint broke don't fix it" theme BTW. I know I haven't had other issues and I hope others can say the same for me. If you are out there and you had an issue with something I did or didn't do - let me know how you see fit and I will make it right.
Laker is right about "newbies" and while this has been a term that we proudly have not used here often, there is something to be said for it----remember the cheap bum asking for to be bombed in his first post a few months ago?-----But in addition to this, the "good traders thread" has turned into a picture thread of winnings. While thats fun to see, I think it totally defeats the purpose of what the thread was intended (and best utilized) for.
I think there is TOO MUCH of a stigma as well for stating the truth about other people here. Im not talking personal issues (Puro or Kuzi and my dumb a$$ for instance ahwile back) Im talking about stuff like with Joey. We throw the BOTL/BORK names around like its a badge of honor in which a man can do no wrong. Then when you criticize them, even when just, youre seen as attacking the whole institution or person as an individual. In order to be a great forum, there needs to be good traders, and trust, and BORKs, and honesty-----but there also needs to be a counter balance there to proect the same people we all hold so dear from those who may not have such good intentions.
PM of course should be utilized to handle this in all ways possible. But when you have tried PM many times, over a long period of time, and the other person does not respond OR after lengthy period NEVER does anything to fix the issues----what is one to do then? By saying nothing, your f*cking the ones you claim your trying to protect, your BOTL's.
With due time, due diligence, and no favorable response (or no response at all) there should be a way to war fellow guys to "proceed with caution". Not a way to blast a guy as a dou*hebag, a$$hole, or other personal insult. Just a way to say what went down and when...what actions were taken and not taken....and not guys feel free to do what you want with that person. Saying nothing after a bad issue that is never resolved seems to me like getting food posioning from a place, but not telling your buddy who plans to eat the same thing on the same day (theroretical I know) for fear of offending someone or just staying out of it.
i will tell you how i do trades.
I dont trade nearly as much as others do here. I am INCREDIBLY selective on who i trade with.
i have only once done a trade with a guy on here that i did not feel was a "good friend," and even the time i did, i had to receive their cigars before i sent out mine.
i have always looked at trades here with skepticism and a "buyer beware" attitude.
i have a list of people that i wont trade with.
i have a list of people i will not hesitate to trade with.
I dont advertise these lists because it is about a trust between me and that other person.
i almost never look at the good traders list. (though its required in all the contests i run)
if there is any doubt at all, im out.
??????????
Thank you for the Love........ Its all good, When *** like this happens you find out who is real and who is not.... I know who is real and who is not and Like me or not I am as Real as they Gte, you will ALWAYS know where I stand.... No PHONY HERE, I love this FOrum and MOST of the GUys On it. Glenn you have been a TRUE freind from the First BOMB ...... Many Others I call my friends as well. I am not Piling on anything FACTS speak for themselves and the TRUTH ALWAYS comes out.....
I have used this Quote for most of my Adult life
"HONSETY IS MY ONLY EXCUSE"
"F*ck it all and f*cking no regrets. Never happy ending on these dark sets."
But I did feel like sharing what I view as two important general points made so far.
Kuzi you say you view trades with skepticism, and I 100% agree. But wanted to take it one step further, and add that people should be careful when sending out cigars that mean alot to you for whatever reason. Maybe thats easy for me to say that because my humi is filled with very reasonably priced easy to come by smokes, becaue thats what fits me. To me cigars are meant to be smoked and shared. I understand that the hobby means different things to everyone, and some are collectors, some are agers, some are into the best of the best, etc, but regardless of what your preferences are and what the hobby meants to you, I do think its appropriate to be careful when trading anyhting that's personal.
the second point from Alex, is also worth mentioning, because I like his viewpoint here. Bombs are a way to reach out to someone and say "hey I appreciate your opinion", or "I appreciate what you add to the forum", maybe someone offers to bomb some sticks of a line that someone is thinking of buying, or maybe just a cross country highfive. I think Alex nailed that perfectly in his description.
Just adding my two cents here to two great points already made.
Really? I leave the forum for a few weeks, and I come back to a witchhunt? Obviously I missed out on the original thread apparently jumping on Joey, but having caught up on this one I just can't believe what this forum has been reduced to. Right now, I know I owe two guys packages, and I've kept in touch with both of them (if not, let me know gentlemen) regarding being late. Other than that, I personally have kept myself away from games/trades/etc for a good while just because I know that I procrastinate and/or forget about things, and determine on my own that it's not right for others to deal with my BS. Other than that, if I haven't been a stand-up man and trader the entire damn time I've been on this board, SOMEONE come out and tell me so - don't pussyfoot around BOTH of you and say what you're trying to say.
I hope this isnt too "unilateral" of me, but I was thinking before this whole rigamorole fades away maybe we should try to act and see what we can come up with. Wish me luck!
There have been many good points through out this thread and i have to agree with the ones saying we shouldnt re invent the wheel. But i think we should possibly modify it.
Kreig makes a great point on how he trades and i think we should all consider that.
I think we can try adding 3 new threads to help out distinguishing who to trade with and who to be cautious with.
The 3 threads i think we should have are, Good Traders, Bombers, "Bad Trades".
Now this probably wont stop the few incidents that happen but hopefully present facts to all parties that want to trade and play the games on the board.
Good Trades - Should just be a quick post, not putting pictures up and filling the thread with "fluff" but again facts. X sent package great shape etc..
Bombers - As someone stated bombing someone doesnt mean that they will be a good trader this thread you can throw pics up etc but this will just say hey X hit me with a great package for no reason.
and then finally "bad trades" - this thread should again just state the facts. Alot of people get tied up with life and space sending a package, this thread will help with the people that do get busy with life to remind them they have to send a package out and will hopefully send it. This will also help give a warning to every one else that this person may not be best to trade with.
Again this is just my .02 on a way to help prevent trades going south in the future.
Im no internet wizard, but with the ones we have among the BOTL on the forums I cant see how this could be some massive undertaking???