Buyer's Remorse, or Voter's Remorse...

phobicsquirrel

PuroFreak:

The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12809

cato is a right wing think tank run by koch.. come on. once again I see I'm talking to a wall on here. Talking points on top 1percent..? Really okay I give in, yeah I'm just repeating things that aren't the truth. Go on with what you "believe". Your a cop right? well when you get walked over you may see. This is all much more complicated that you know. The entire government is bought or almost bought by the top 1 percent or at least most of it.

http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/opinion/14rich.html

http://www.truth-out.org/how-koch-industries-makes-billions-corrupting-government-and-polluting-free-part-268162

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/09/12/780277/-Koch-Industries-Think-Tank-Thugs-Come-Out-to-Play

http://dbapress.com/source-materials-archive/koch-money-the-corporate-cash-that-oils-the-right-wing-“think-tank”-machine-koch-industries-americans-for-prosperity-americans-for-prosperity-foundation-reason-foundation-cato

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/02/12/tax-cuts-won-t-work.html

http://www.nea.org/home/18009.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html

http://www.theyrule.net/2004/tr2.php

http://www.carolinapoliticsonline.com/2011/03/03/apparently-the-tea-party-has-been-bought-by-big-oil-too/

http://democurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2010/11/tea-party-suckers-bought-hook-line-and.html

http://americanhatriots.wordpress.com/2010/09/19/follow-the-money-gop-and-tea-party-bought-sold-owned/

Amos Umwhat

xmacro:

Amos Umwhat:

well, I screwed that up! I can't tell mine from Xmacro's, at any rate, my main point was to be: Yes, I've heard the top 1% pay half the taxes, but I've also heard they have 90% of the money, so, I'm OK with them paying half the taxes.

Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game - there is no "pool of money" that everyone dips out of. You've got to stop thinking of this as if it were a game of Monopoly or that there's only so much money to go around - that's the biggest problem with the Left when it comes to economics, they can't get beyond the Monopoly mindset.

The private sector creates wealth, the Gov't is the one who redistributes it - the reason these companies hold "90%" of the money is because they're the ones who created it in the first place!!

Lastly - remember that no company is fixed in it's place. They can ALL pick themselves up and move to another State or another country if taxes get too high - that's why you're seeing business flee NY and CA, because of taxes. If State X confiscated 50% of the taxes, and State Y confiscates 20%, any business with the ability is going to fire all it's employees in State X and move itself to State Y. Now State X not only lost the tax revenue from that business, but it also gained people on it's unemployment rolls.

Yeah, I wish that what I'd intended had made it to the board, believe it or not I was in agreement with about 80% of what you had to say, I may try to address it later, home sick today, don't have the energy. I'm going to try to delete my aborted post.

xmacro

Pheebs - CATO is a respected think tank, yet all you posted are left-wing blogs, NEA union sites, and opinion pieces from the NYT and time. Really Pheebs, c'mon. If you can't do better than opinion pieces or a progressive blog, you're really hurting for evidence.

xmacro

Amos Umwhat:

xmacro:

Amos Umwhat:

well, I screwed that up! I can't tell mine from Xmacro's, at any rate, my main point was to be: Yes, I've heard the top 1% pay half the taxes, but I've also heard they have 90% of the money, so, I'm OK with them paying half the taxes.

Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game - there is no "pool of money" that everyone dips out of. You've got to stop thinking of this as if it were a game of Monopoly or that there's only so much money to go around - that's the biggest problem with the Left when it comes to economics, they can't get beyond the Monopoly mindset.

The private sector creates wealth, the Gov't is the one who redistributes it - the reason these companies hold "90%" of the money is because they're the ones who created it in the first place!!

Lastly - remember that no company is fixed in it's place. They can ALL pick themselves up and move to another State or another country if taxes get too high - that's why you're seeing business flee NY and CA, because of taxes. If State X confiscated 50% of the taxes, and State Y confiscates 20%, any business with the ability is going to fire all it's employees in State X and move itself to State Y. Now State X not only lost the tax revenue from that business, but it also gained people on it's unemployment rolls.

Yeah, I wish that what I'd intended had made it to the board, believe it or not I was in agreement with about 80% of what you had to say, I may try to address it later, home sick today, don't have the energy. I'm going to try to delete my aborted post.

I look forward to your argument when you post it

PuroFreak

phobicsquirrel:

PuroFreak:

The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12809

cato is a right wing think tank run by koch.. come on. once again I see I'm talking to a wall on here. Talking points on top 1percent..? Really okay I give in, yeah I'm just repeating things that aren't the truth. Go on with what you "believe". Your a cop right? well when you get walked over you may see. This is all much more complicated that you know. The entire government is bought or almost bought by the top 1 percent or at least most of it.

http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/opinion/14rich.html

http://www.truth-out.org/how-koch-industries-makes-billions-corrupting-government-and-polluting-free-part-268162

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/09/12/780277/-Koch-Industries-Think-Tank-Thugs-Come-Out-to-Play

http://dbapress.com/source-materials-archive/koch-money-the-corporate-cash-that-oils-the-right-wing-“think-tank”-machine-koch-industries-americans-for-prosperity-americans-for-prosperity-foundation-reason-foundation-cato

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/02/12/tax-cuts-won-t-work.html

http://www.nea.org/home/18009.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html

You can't prove it wrong. I didn't attack your source but went after the thoughts and ideas you proposed. Sadly you can't truthfully do the same. You can bash CATO.org all you want, but you attack the facts.

phobicsquirrel

xmacro:

Pheebs - CATO is a respected think tank, yet all you posted are left-wing blogs, NEA union sites, and opinion pieces from the NYT and time. Really Pheebs, c'mon. If you can't do better than opinion pieces or a progressive blog, you're really hurting for evidence.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/gov-rick-scott-guided-by-3-think-tanks-cato-institute-reason-foundation/1158658

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/how-powerful-are-the-koch-brothers/2011/03/10/ABrXQRl_blog.html

Wake up buddy, the Cato is not respected. They are all about the right wing agenda. They were founded by the koch's who are behind so much of the propaganda being pushed on the public.

phobicsquirrel

PuroFreak:

phobicsquirrel:

PuroFreak:

The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12809

cato is a right wing think tank run by koch.. come on. once again I see I'm talking to a wall on here. Talking points on top 1percent..? Really okay I give in, yeah I'm just repeating things that aren't the truth. Go on with what you "believe". Your a cop right? well when you get walked over you may see. This is all much more complicated that you know. The entire government is bought or almost bought by the top 1 percent or at least most of it.

http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/opinion/14rich.html

http://www.truth-out.org/how-koch-industries-makes-billions-corrupting-government-and-polluting-free-part-268162

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/09/12/780277/-Koch-Industries-Think-Tank-Thugs-Come-Out-to-Play

http://dbapress.com/source-materials-archive/koch-money-the-corporate-cash-that-oils-the-right-wing-“think-tank”-machine-koch-industries-americans-for-prosperity-americans-for-prosperity-foundation-reason-foundation-cato

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/02/12/tax-cuts-won-t-work.html

http://www.nea.org/home/18009.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html

You can't prove it wrong. I didn't attack your source but went after the thoughts and ideas you proposed. Sadly you can't truthfully do the same. You can bash CATO.org all you want, but you attack the facts.

lol, the facts... okay then.

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cato.html

http://climateprogress.org/2010/01/05/cato-institute-patrick-michaels-falsehood-stolen-emails-climategate-michael-mann-peer-review/



http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Cato-Institute-s-Daffy-by-Barbara-O-Brien-090716-948.html



http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Koch_Industries

xmacro

phobicsquirrel:

xmacro:

Pheebs - CATO is a respected think tank, yet all you posted are left-wing blogs, NEA union sites, and opinion pieces from the NYT and time. Really Pheebs, c'mon. If you can't do better than opinion pieces or a progressive blog, you're really hurting for evidence.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/gov-rick-scott-guided-by-3-think-tanks-cato-institute-reason-foundation/1158658

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/how-powerful-are-the-koch-brothers/2011/03/10/ABrXQRl_blog.html

Wake up buddy, the Cato is not respected. They are all about the right wing agenda. They were founded by the koch's who are behind so much of the propaganda being pushed on the public.

Your obsession about the Kochs is in lockstep with Moveon.org - the Kochs have been giving to conservative causes for over 30 yrs, yet the only time you started caring about it was in Nov. of 2010. In short, you and the people who believe CATO are "all about the right wing agenda", are the the ones who don't respect any argument made by a conservative, regardless of the evidence or regardless of the source - anything and everything that doesn't suit your world view is "all about the right wing agenda", and the only sources you believe are the ones that confirm your ingrained beliefs.

Give me a newspaper article, give me something written by a journalist that's NOT on an editorial board. Blogs are little more than a person sitting in their underwear writing posts for anonymous viewers. They aren't evidence of anything other than indicating where you go for your information.

And you still haven't answered any of my previous posts, instead all you do is post rant after rant, ignoring anyone who disagrees with you and only posting link after link to far left, progressive blogs and opinion sites that have no responsibility to support any of their allegations.

------------------------------------------------

You condemn anyone who gives to conservative causes, but never mention the billionaires who regularly fund far left/progressive causes.

Here's a repost from earlier in the thread, this is only part of an entire post that you never answered:

xmacro:

what's wrong with people donating to the tea party or Republican party? Why are you singling out the Kochs? Lately the Left wing has been in a tizzy ever since they found out that the Kochs, some rich businessmen with conservative leanings, donated to Republicans (no surprice - the Kochs had listed this giving on their website for years and no one cared until Nov. 2010).

Why would you single them out, but give a pass to all the billionaire/trust fund babies supporting the Democrats? From Progressive Insurance founder (forget his name) to George Soros - you can't condemn people for giving to Republicans without pointing out the people who have, for decades, been giving to progressive causes.

At any rate, I'm done - you aren't responding to any arguments or defending any of your points with your own ideas. All you do is post links to irrelevant sites, and you're just ranting at this point. I'm done with your posts

kuzi16

phobicsquirrel:

cato is a right wing think tank run by koch

cato is a LIBERTARIAN think tank. they are VERY critical of the political right.
...as well they should be.

PuroFreak

phobicsquirrel:

PuroFreak:

phobicsquirrel:

PuroFreak:

The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12809

cato is a right wing think tank run by koch.. come on. once again I see I'm talking to a wall on here. Talking points on top 1percent..? Really okay I give in, yeah I'm just repeating things that aren't the truth. Go on with what you "believe". Your a cop right? well when you get walked over you may see. This is all much more complicated that you know. The entire government is bought or almost bought by the top 1 percent or at least most of it.

http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/top-1-percent-control-42/462728

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/opinion/14rich.html

http://www.truth-out.org/how-koch-industries-makes-billions-corrupting-government-and-polluting-free-part-268162

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/09/12/780277/-Koch-Industries-Think-Tank-Thugs-Come-Out-to-Play

http://dbapress.com/source-materials-archive/koch-money-the-corporate-cash-that-oils-the-right-wing-“think-tank”-machine-koch-industries-americans-for-prosperity-americans-for-prosperity-foundation-reason-foundation-cato

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/02/12/tax-cuts-won-t-work.html

http://www.nea.org/home/18009.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html

You can't prove it wrong. I didn't attack your source but went after the thoughts and ideas you proposed. Sadly you can't truthfully do the same. You can bash CATO.org all you want, but you attack the facts.

lol, the facts... okay then.

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cato.html

http://climateprogress.org/2010/01/05/cato-institute-patrick-michaels-falsehood-stolen-emails-climategate-michael-mann-peer-review/



http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Cato-Institute-s-Daffy-by-Barbara-O-Brien-090716-948.html



http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Koch_Industries

Man you are the master of deflection! Can't stick to the argument and have any original thought. Have to start posting stories on a completely unrelated topic like cimategate... This has become childish and I'm done. You can continue to not discuss the the facts of the topic at hand. Keep drinking the koolaid Pheebs. Life is a lot harder once you stop blaming those evil rich people while begging the government to fix it and start taking responsibility for things ourselves. We've seen your record of lying in the Libya thread and your claims about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan... I'm done here.

Vulchor

xmacro:

Pheebs - CATO is a respected think tank, yet all you posted are left-wing blogs, NEA union sites, and opinion pieces from the NYT and time. Really Pheebs, c'mon. If you can't do better than opinion pieces or a progressive blog, you're really hurting for evidence.

Now Cmon....if you wanna consider his sources leftist I can hear it perhaps, but to call CATO of all things respected or reliable...outside of the right??? Not true at all. Hell, there was an article today in the St. Pete Times about how Florida's Governor is a spokesperson and talking point for CATO.

Vulchor

Everyone is drinking the kool aid here, myself included....unless some of you guys are making that 6,7,8 figure salaries. This is what the big donors---liberal and republican----really want. They have found a way to keep the poor to middling class complaining about the wealthy, and a way to keep the middle class and upper class complaining about the lower classes. In turn, everyone complains about everyone... and the most wealthy----who do no complaining of their own, they just hire people and influence opinion-----sit back and relax. Its a class warfare and mind warfare and everyone would rather argue about political tenets that only a select few in this country (or world for that matter) have the ability to change. Money is power, to believe otherwise is lunacy----and the money keeps all of us at each others throats while we work for Applebees, the state, police depts, manufacturing, ect. The money isnt there, its elsewhere but instead of collectively realizing that we woudl rather demonize one another and people making below the poverty line.

xmacro

Vulchor:

xmacro:

Pheebs - CATO is a respected think tank, yet all you posted are left-wing blogs, NEA union sites, and opinion pieces from the NYT and time. Really Pheebs, c'mon. If you can't do better than opinion pieces or a progressive blog, you're really hurting for evidence.

Now Cmon....if you wanna consider his sources leftist I can hear it perhaps, but to call CATO of all things respected or reliable...outside of the right??? Not true at all. Hell, there was an article today in the St. Pete Times about how Florida's Governor is a spokesperson and talking point for CATO.

Not quite - the Governor cites CATO, Reason and Heritage Foundation arguments as reason for guiding his policy; he's not a spokesman for them: http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/gov-rick-scott-guided-by-3-think-tanks-cato-institute-reason-foundation/1158658

Difference being, think tanks of all political stripes, Right and Left, publish their papers specifically so policy makers will be persuaded by them.

As for the Gov. appointing ppl from CATO in his administration, every President, from Reagan to Obama, does the exact same thing, as the article points out

Vulchor

Agreed totally.....Also didnt mean to sound like I was saying the was a direct spokesperson, my obvious bias in the writing there. I was simply citing that as Pheebs sources may not be considered objective info, nor should CATO be.

xmacro

Ah, I got it

phobicsquirrel

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/03/18/the-michigan-monarchy-legislates-financial-martial-law-nation-yawns/

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

Vulchor

Not to change the subject (slightly), but when it comes to how bad unions are and how bad regulation is---------just wanted to remind everyone that this week was the 100th "Anniversary" of the Triangle Waist Company fire in N.Y. Being a history/political buff (and getting college degrees in them for that matter) this is one of the largest, and at times forgotten, moments on our nations long history of forgetting things that are unpleasant. Many in politics seem hellbent on returning to a day where this type of regulation and corporate interest ruled

If your not aware of the event, look it up. If you are, you probably know what I mean----but you may try a different spin on it. Either way----memories and regards to those who perished 100 years ago.

xmacro

Vulchor:

Not to change the subject (slightly), but when it comes to how bad unions are and how bad regulation is---------just wanted to remind everyone that this week was the 100th "Anniversary" of the Triangle Waist Company fire in N.Y. Being a history/political buff (and getting college degrees in them for that matter) this is one of the largest, and at times forgotten, moments on our nations long history of forgetting things that are unpleasant. Many in politics seem hellbent on returning to a day where this type of regulation and corporate interest ruled

If your not aware of the event, look it up. If you are, you probably know what I mean----but you may try a different spin on it. Either way----memories and regards to those who perished 100 years ago.

Keyword in that paragraph being "100 years ago". If you're gonna dig up something so ancient, you can prove any point.

EDIT - and I see Pheebs is still posting irrelevant links to some blogger sitting in his underwear. Like I said Pheebs, blogs don't mean anything. Oh, and I found this about your Rick Ungar - turns out he's a progressive who was kept on by Forbes after they bought out True/Slant: http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlla/progressive-man-bites-dog-forbes-blogger-draws-lefty-praise-in-wisconsin_b24485

All you can do is post some irrelevant links instead of arguing using your own words, and you haven't responded to single argument yet.

You lose, Pheebs

kuzi16

xmacro:

Vulchor:

Not to change the subject (slightly), but when it comes to how bad unions are and how bad regulation is---------just wanted to remind everyone that this week was the 100th "Anniversary" of the Triangle Waist Company fire in N.Y. Being a history/political buff (and getting college degrees in them for that matter) this is one of the largest, and at times forgotten, moments on our nations long history of forgetting things that are unpleasant. Many in politics seem hellbent on returning to a day where this type of regulation and corporate interest ruled

If your not aware of the event, look it up. If you are, you probably know what I mean----but you may try a different spin on it. Either way----memories and regards to those who perished 100 years ago.

Keyword in that paragraph being "100 years ago". If you're gonna dig up something so ancient, you can prove any point.

iduno macro ...
to me the point seems valid.
this is an example of what unions were originally intended for.

i mean it is a historical fact that this happened and that the rise of unions was in part due to this.

as far as how it translates to today... well you know how i roll here now. im staying out of it.

xmacro

kuzi16:

xmacro:

Vulchor:

Not to change the subject (slightly), but when it comes to how bad unions are and how bad regulation is---------just wanted to remind everyone that this week was the 100th "Anniversary" of the Triangle Waist Company fire in N.Y. Being a history/political buff (and getting college degrees in them for that matter) this is one of the largest, and at times forgotten, moments on our nations long history of forgetting things that are unpleasant. Many in politics seem hellbent on returning to a day where this type of regulation and corporate interest ruled

If your not aware of the event, look it up. If you are, you probably know what I mean----but you may try a different spin on it. Either way----memories and regards to those who perished 100 years ago.

Keyword in that paragraph being "100 years ago". If you're gonna dig up something so ancient, you can prove any point.

iduno macro ...
to me the point seems valid.
this is an example of what unions were originally intended for.

i mean it is a historical fact that this happened and that the rise of unions was in part due to this.

as far as how it translates to today... well you know how i roll here now. im staying out of it.

Originally, unions were intended to protect "the little guy" - and in the private sector, that's still the case in some ways. But what Vulchor fails to mention, is that:
1) Unions are their own special interest party - they've got as many lobbyists as any corporation, they're paid with mandatory dues, and they can look out for themselves as well as any corporation

2) The Governors are going after public-sector unions, which are as far from private sector unions as Obama is from Bill Gates.

As I said in a previous post, this is something I've never understood about liberal thought - they trust the Government to take peoples money through taxes, and spend it on all these social programs that are near and dear to their hearts - but suddenly the Left thinks that a union is required to protect workers from Government. Well, which is it? You trust Government to tax and dole out billions of dollars on social programs, but you don't trust them to pay their workers a fair wage? It's a total non-sequitur

beatnic

Ask yourselves one very simple question. If a unions' purpose is to protect the worker, exactly who do we need to protect the public servant from? The public? Public sector unionization is self-defeating.

Vulchor

-------"Originally, unions were intended to protect "the little guy" - and in the private sector, that's still the case in some ways. But what Vulchor fails to mention, is that:
1) Unions are their own special interest party - they've got as many lobbyists as any corporation, they're paid with mandatory dues, and they can look out for themselves as well as any corporation

2) The Governors are going after public-sector unions, which are as far from private sector unions as Obama is from Bill Gates.

As I said in a previous post, this is something I've never understood about liberal thought - they trust the Government to take peoples money through taxes, and spend it on all these social programs that are near and dear to their hearts - but suddenly the Left thinks that a union is required to protect workers from Government. Well, which is it? You trust Government to tax and dole out billions of dollars on social programs, but you don't trust them to pay their workers a fair wage? It's a total non-sequitur"-------



Macro-----just to respond to your points.....I dont disagree they are their own special interest....like most or any group of people with a large number of like minded individuals with some type of money to be used for influence----However I dont see how that applies to the point I was trying to make, other than the continual demonizing of unions

The Governors you speak of, and other politicians for that matter since the first Unions were created have "gone after" private unions with as much power as they could, and that continues to this day. While the public unions are making the pages of the news (and channels of T.V.), I am not naive enough to believe this is the only goal here

Lastly, youre talking about the left wingers and social programs, and fair wages, ect. I am talking about standards of work safety, profit/bottom line vs responsibility to your workers, ect. So I again dont understand your point here or how it has anything to do with what I wrote a few days ago, sorry.

xmacro

Vulchor:

Macro-----just to respond to your points.....I dont disagree they are their own special interest....like most or any group of people with a large number of like minded individuals with some type of money to be used for influence----However I dont see how that applies to the point I was trying to make, other than the continual demonizing of unions

The Governors you speak of, and other politicians for that matter since the first Unions were created have "gone after" private unions with as much power as they could, and that continues to this day. While the public unions are making the pages of the news (and channels of T.V.), I am not naive enough to believe this is the only goal here

Lastly, youre talking about the left wingers and social programs, and fair wages, ect. I am talking about standards of work safety, profit/bottom line vs responsibility to your workers, ect. So I again dont understand your point here or how it has anything to do with what I wrote a few days ago, sorry.

Seems we're talking past each other; I think the reason you don't understand my point is because you're talking about private unions and I'm talking about public unions, two very different entities

For private unions, they deal with corporations, and require a vote to be formed; if they push too hard on the company, then the company can push back, and if they don't, they become less competitive - that's all fine. Private sector unions aren't subsidized by taxpayers, and if they cause any harm, it's only to the company they're formed under.

That said, they still wield large influence - the Labor Relations board under Obama has been populated with former labor lawyers, who've overturned rulings on union formation and proxy battles. But that's another matter entirely - my point in this thread was State public unions.

Public unions are paid with taxpayer money, that's then funneled to the union via mandatory dues, which is then used to elect politicians who will fatten their contracts - that's the scandal, the fact that when public sector unions negotiate, they're negotiating with politicians they elected and no one's looking out for the taxpayer.

cabinetmaker

Public unions are paid with taxpayer money, that's then funneled to the union via mandatory dues, which is then used to elect politicians who will fatten their contracts - that's the scandal, the fact that when public sector unions negotiate, they're negotiating with politicians they elected and no one's looking out for the taxpayer.

That's the real issue.